Obligatory OTA complaint thread (the sequel)

[The Milkman]

Ah shit, here we go again.

So today, from what I've heard, we have seen a massive attack of Overwatch. This was in retaliation to an attack of resistance yesterday night where three vorts and about 5/6 resistance members broke into the underground section of checkpoint-1, stole some data, and blew up the elevator, as well as taking 2 cops hostage and severely injuring another.

So, next day, OTA gear up and do a shadow sweep of twelve ten soldiers. They kill a whole bunch of people as far as I'm aware and then head back to base.

Now, you may be saying: "Milkman rebels did a bad and there was a retaliation, of course they're gonna do something to punish rebels," and to that I say yeah of course. But let me address the problems with this one in particular.

OTA DEPLOYMENT LIMIT.
Overwatch, ever since the '20 OTA vs 1 vort' incident back during Ron's leadership, have always had a pretty strict deployment limit. This was set at about 5 OWS and 1 ORD for the first wave of a sweep. When I was an Overwatch soldier, deployments were heavily restricted and meant to keep things balanced for rebel players. 6 OTA was an overwhelming force for even the most prepared of rebel groups,

So why 12 10? Apparently, according to Neonity, shadow sweeps do not apply to the deployment limit. And to that I say, cringe. The entire point of the deployment limits are OOCly so rebels are not immediately stomped into the dirt when they see 15 PK-eager OTA rushing down because they killed a cop or 2. So why is it that these limits can be utterly ignored for sweeps that are specifically meant to be after the action has passed and the rebels are generally unprepared? It seems pretty counter-productive and no doubt will lead to loopholes where OTA will respond to something as a 'shadow sweep' simply to bypass the limits.


WHY OTA?
Let's face it, OTA are always itching to deploy. I know because I was as well. It's fun to be the big bad rebel killer and even more fun to actually go out and do things as one.

But it's times like these we gotta wonder "is Overwatch really necessary?" Sure, you could argue since the CPs yesterday got boned that it's time to call in the payday 2 Overkill difficulty squad, but I'd argue that CPs were perfectly capable to handle their own shadow sweeps and Overwatch really wasn't necessary (especially AFTER everything's already unfolded). But of course, if the deployment limits weren't loopholed then a 6 man OTA squad would arguably be better than 15 CPs running around the sewers like headless chickens.

just because rebels can take some cops whose tactics are questionable down doesn't mean suddenly all of rebelRP should be faced with an inescapable death squad of AR2 soldiers and suppressors. It takes a very powerful group to even hold their ground against OTA, letalone kill them. Not to mention Civil Protection are always far better for roleplay opportunities, and could take on even the most heavily armed rebel groups in an even fight.

Basically, it probably would have been better to just send the cops down to do their own shadow sweep. At least then people who are caught in TBC stand a fleeing or even fighting chance. If they get overrun, then send OTA!

ANOTHER GRIPE
Look

I love ya @Neonity (no homo/hetero) but it's a bit strange to see an OTA lead actively participate in an activity and then afterwards plan a shadow sweep in retaliation over said activity and then watch from above in observer as rebels are PK'd for something you helped organize. Something like this would have 100% gotten anyone else dewhitelisted from the faction (not only from causing the sweep and then sweeping for themselves but also from being in a rebel group in general), and it's just uncanny to see you organize an overpowered sweep over an attack you actively shot CPs in; whilst safely watching OTA get their kills in observer.

According to Neonity, apparently they did not shoot at all during the engagement and tried to minimize their involvement during the whole rebel operation. As well as apparently the sweep not even being their idea. My apologies for the assumptions. Although they were still apart of the attack itself, but apparently didn't even shoot at the cops.



But what do you, the player think? Am I just whining? (didnt actually get affected by the sweep myself I just heard about it afterwards) Or do I bring a valid point? YOU DECIDE!!

edit: apparently there were technically 10 during the sweep, according to neonity. One being Neonity themself in observer, and another being AFK in the nexus, so 10 OTA. Still sucks tho

Edit #2: apparently the 10 OTA were split into 2 teams of 5. One in the sewers, on in the slums. Do with that information what you will........

 

[IDKanymoregaming]

Eh, honestly, this does seem like a bit of overkill.

 

[Thood74]

It has been an ABSURDLY long time since I've been involved with the OTA faction, so I don't know their stats, organisation, etc.

But I can all but guarantee, in spite of any nerfs, this was TOO MUCH. Back when I partook in OTA, something like this would undoubtedly result in upper management intervention for hosting a shadow sweep with THIS many OTA. Not sure how thats changed, but stuff like this just ain't okay.

Furthermore, the OTA lead partaking in some highly direct rebel activities is something to be questioned.

I urge the CMs to involve themselves in this, and resolve it hastily. As they used to, and hopefully still do.

 

[Goose]

Due to neon's clarification, I don't believe there was any abuse on her end of the spectrum.

However, from the rebel perspective I completely understand their frustration with the situation. While I will agree that it was slightly over-kill, I believe I can justify the massive deployment. Or at the very least, attempt to understand the situation. I personally believe the main reason for so many overwatch soldiers deploying was due to vortigaunt involvement, as well as the destruction of a critical civil-protection asset (the elevator). I believe the main reason was due to the number of vortigaunts, as their infamous for destroying everything in their path with vort-beams.


Furthermore, regarding the shadow-sweep issue. If this is indeed a loop-hole, I'm not sure neonity intended to abuse it. If it is indeed a loophole, it should be fixed to prevent further issues regarding it in the future. Of course I have overwatch bias as I'm one of them, but I tried to see this from all perspectives.

TLR - Vortigaunts and destruction of critical CP asset seems to be the reason for mass-deployment.

 

[The Milkman]

I believe the main reason was due to the number of vortigaunts,

3 vorts

 

[swagile]

idk i think this was legit and i was one of the rebels

2 RL's got critical'd, a critical asset leading into sewers got utterly decimated, a hacking attempt of critical info was gotten, multiple free outland biotics was spotted, and rebels were forewarned that retaliation would be imminent (i told them icly yesterday bcz the last time something of this nature happened, manual rations happened and CP's giga sweeped)

and what do u know, OTA swept and pwned rebels

im not surprised at all

the only thing i can say that was cringe is that the only escape for vorts is flagging off bcz they have no hiding spot still but thats being worked on

however rebels had forewarning (at least those part of the operation); as for rebels topside that weren't part of it, it was either bad luck or they were wearing full gear again for no reason

tl;dr this wasn't a random sweep done for no reason and anyone caught in it unforutnately deserved their fate

also i hate the hard sweep limit bcz everyone metagames it

 

[Raptorian]

idk i think this was legit and i was one of the rebels

2 RL's got critical'd, a critical asset leading into sewers got utterly decimated, a hacking attempt of critical info was gotten, multiple free outland biotics was spotted, and rebels were forewarned that retaliation would be imminent (i told them icly yesterday bcz the last time something of this nature happened, manual rations happened and CP's giga sweeped)

and what do u know, OTA swept and pwned rebels

im not surprised at all

the only thing i can say that was cringe is that the only escape for vorts is flagging off bcz they have no hiding spot still but thats being worked on

however rebels had forewarning (at least those part of the operation); as for rebels topside that weren't part of it, it was either bad luck or they were wearing full gear again for no reason

tl;dr this wasn't a random sweep done for no reason and anyone caught in it unforutnately deserved their fate

also i hate the hard sweep limit bcz everyone metagames it

Retaliation is fair. But sending an unstoppable death squad is not. That's the point of this thread - due to how strong OTA are and how TBC works, this was not just a retaliatory sweep, this was a walking PK machine. Even if we had our full crew, contending with them in a traditional battle would be very difficult, perhaps even impossible.

 

[The Milkman]

idk i think this was legit and i was one of the rebels

2 RL's got critical'd, a critical asset leading into sewers got utterly decimated, a hacking attempt of critical info was gotten, multiple free outland biotics was spotted, and rebels were forewarned that retaliation would be imminent (i told them icly yesterday bcz the last time something of this nature happened, manual rations happened and CP's giga sweeped)

and what do u know, OTA swept and pwned rebels

im not surprised at all

the only thing i can say that was cringe is that the only escape for vorts is flagging off bcz they have no hiding spot still but thats being worked on

however rebels had forewarning (at least those part of the operation); as for rebels topside that weren't part of it, it was either bad luck or they were wearing full gear again for no reason

tl;dr this wasn't a random sweep done for no reason and anyone caught in it unforutnately deserved their fate

also i hate the hard sweep limit bcz everyone metagames it

True, it was painfully obvious there was going to be a sweep of some kind the day after to retaliate (which makes me wonder why the people who were involved bothered flagging on their rebels and going into the sewers literally the day after).

though the main point is the seeming lack of deployment limits over it, how absolutely overwhelming 10 OTA without limits in what to carry (with 2 suppressors nonetheless) is without an actual dead/retreated wave of OTA first.

The point about whether OTA was just speculation and my honest opinion anyways rather than an actual complaint. I just think that just because cops did some dumb moves and got punished doesn't mean OTA are really necessary. I mean, what's to stop OTA from deploying because 1 guy with a grenade got lucky against a sweep of CPs?

 

[numbers23541]

Retaliation is fair. But sending an unstoppable death squad is not. That's the point of this thread - due to how strong OTA are and how TBC works, this was not just a retaliatory sweep, this was a walking PK machine. Even if we had our full crew, contending with them in a traditional battle would be very difficult, perhaps even impossible.

thats a little unfair calling the ota an unstoppable deathsquad when 12 rebels and 3 vorts hunted cops down and were basically practically unstoppable at that moment, so now u get the combine version of unstoppable


i think the sweep was warranted in the way it was executed

 

[Raptorian]

thats a little unfair calling the ota an unstoppable deathsquad when 12 rebels and 3 vorts hunted cops down and were basically practically unstoppable at that moment, so now u get the combine version of unstoppable


i think the sweep was warranted in the way it was executed

We didn't "hunt cops down". They went down an elevator into an ambush. We literally only captured 2 and killed 1, while still taking damage, one of our own was even downed.

 

[The Milkman]

thats a little unfair calling the ota an unstoppable deathsquad when 12 rebels and 3 vorts hunted cops down and were basically practically unstoppable at that moment, so now u get the combine version of unstoppable


i think the sweep was warranted in the way it was executed

I'd argue that the cops, if they'd made smarter moves (not hating on them just sayin) instead of going down the elevator of death, and with their full numbers, could have given us a fair fight. The only reason why it was a curbstomp was because they panicked and made mistakes.

You could argue that vorts are powerful, and yes they are powerful, but are nowhere near viable. All it takes is to take cover after shooting and a vort cannot touch you at all. The only reason any of them got beamed was because they ended their turn in full view of one

Seven cops versus 9(?) or so vorts and rebels (plus Grunk) is still leaning on the rebel side, but literally all it takes is 5 more cops to flag on and those odds decrease rapidly, and at that point fighting OTA would be less difficult.

 

[numbers23541]

I'd argue that the cops, if they'd made smarter moves (not hating on them just sayin) instead of going down the elevator of death, and with their full numbers, could have given us a fair fight. The only reason why it was a curbstomp was because they panicked and made mistakes.

You could argue that vorts are powerful, and yes they are powerful, but are nowhere near viable. All it takes is to take cover after shooting and a vort cannot touch you at all. The only reason any of them got beamed was because they ended their turn in full view of one

Seven cops versus 9(?) or so vorts and rebels (plus Grunk) is still leaning on the rebel side, but literally all it takes is 5 more cops to flag on and those odds decrease rapidly, and at that point fighting OTA would be less difficult.

i was under the impression rebels went to city territory, sorry

 

[The Milkman]

i was under the impression rebels went to city territory, sorry

Nah, this all happened under the sewers. We destroyed an elevator that gives CPs and OTA easy access to the underground, stole some data, captured 2 cops and killed a RL (raptorian says we downed another RL but i dont know) all in the sewers. Not to mention those 2 captures were because they got left behind on the fuckin elevator by their peers to die to our firing squad.


(skip to the beginning idk why it puts it at 11 mins in)

 

[Neonity]

Yes! The OTA sweep does seem overkill.

Let me clarify a few things before this turns into a one-sided rant without any actual reasoning for why things are the way they are.

That's the point.

This was nothing more than big show of force from Overwatch over rebels succesfully managing to breach CP-1 and managing to steal important data for themselves. Along with that, they managed to fend off an entire armed Civil Protection sweep and capture two of the units alive, and even turned them rogue.

You see. This happened before, with even less rebels. Last time this happened it resulted in:

An OTA sweep
Manual Rations
Daily Civil Protection slums/sewer sweeps
HB inspections
Random searches
...and probably more I can't recall.

This time, the checkpoint was sieged by a large group of heavily armed rebels, 12 in total. 3 of those were Vortigaunts. Nowadays, a free vortigaunt being spotted already warrants an OTA sweep in itself.

I'm sure you could expect bigger response the second time around. I actually didn't expect more than 5 to flag up, in all honesty. You were also warned ICly about the incoming threat and to lie low on the surface. Everyone was warned about this sweep in advance

However we did actually get rid of the minimum deployment criteria this very day and changed it to a more suitable system where the amount of OTA deployed depends on the amount of rebels. After all, deploying 6 MP7-wielding OTA to fight a group of 20 (hypothetical extreme) rebels, never made much sense to me.

Anyways, me taking part in this thing on a rebel char was completely unplanned, and only happened because I happened to be there at the time. My character is a cook, after all. I didn't fire a single shot and made sure I stayed back to ensure I had the absolute smallest amount of involvement humanly possible. I was also the first one to escape to the outlands during it. Essentially, I made sure nothing happened because of me at all costs. In part due to knowing how controversial it can be having an OTA lead do an operation and then having her send OTA after herself. I know that, and I definitely understand your concern. Just know it's not in bad faith, that's all.

Was it bad, though? Yes. I shouldn't have been there, and was noticeably not participating to the extent I would have otherwise.

As for the rebels that got killed during the sweep, they honestly had it coming. Namely one of them was caught geared up in the slums while they were pointing an SMG at another. So like, don't be surprised.

I do apologize if I got some things wrong or this entire thing looks like a wall of text. I am a mess, and I'm very tired at 3 AM on a Thursday.

 

[The Milkman]

Namely one of them was caught geared up in the slums while they were pointing an SMG at another

rebelRP

 

[Imperator RAD-X]

Hi all.

Perhaps there is a solemn mixture of very credible valid points, but also a tad of the salt that will need to be removed from the plate. I will speak for both parties-

The raid in which the resistance fighters and Vorts was highly eligible to succeed and that it very much did. Really, congratulations to the rebels for pulling the operation in a quick succession. On the other hand, I'll also say very well done to the Combine for committing to a retaliatory strike they said they will commit to. The units that were attacked had gotten themselves into a position ill-suited for any sort of response.

However it appears we're all getting that little bit ahead of ourselves - just a tincy-bit, not too much - but I believe it is imperative to point out that the scale of the Combine's reaction to an incident such as this is a warranted response. The midnight raid is obviously something that is seen as a justifiable response, though I don't feel that an immediate nuclear reaction from the Combine as a first-wave is the best approach for which rebels need to contend with. Remember - they're just a bunch of rando's getting guns, and wanting to go back to the rave party they've been missing out on since forever.

Twelve units, ten units of OTA is a lot of firepower. I go by the statement very literally:
"The Combine are slow to wake but once they're up, you don't want to get in their way."

See - the best way this could have been accomplished is through the activation of the Overwatch AI doing its initial broadcasts and someone pressing that big yellow button in the NEXUS. Something is obviously going down but nobody could tell what really is about to happen. The main thing about the Combine is that they're antagonistic - if you hear these sounds, the hammer is more or less about to strike in some shape or regard. Even more so if their affiliated music is playing on the server. Could be a routine surface sweep, but that's about it - then suddenly your ears pick up those dreading heavy duty footsteps.

I will agree that a stealth-raid of ten Overwatch soldiers on a first wave scouring the enclosed sewers on unsuspecting citizens despite their oddly amazing victory yesterday, is maybe a bit too much. It's fine to give the rebels the win.

You'll want to scare the resistance into submission and have them pray to what-ever-god they believe in that when they are really going to make a move, the Combine will surely retaliate.

This is where it should be taken into account that if they haven't responded immediately - prepare for the worst to come later. Considering the warning signs of the death-prep taking that much of a wait shows to me the rebels had no back-up plan.

Generally, I'm always under a better impression that a buildup is always preferable to an immediate "k flag on for raid" and then Hudson with the entire colonial marines cast from the Aliens movie wielding what-ever starts screaming "GAME OVER MAN, GAME OVER!" less than ten minutes later with full casualties in bleedout mode. Not that this happened considering the rebel casualties were extremely low...

But the truth of the matter to me is if the resistance wants to play the big ball game - be ready for it.


Note to the Overwatch: remember, you have nothing to lose - You want to be Napoleon or Grand Admiral Thrawn in your activity. Be a very cunning opponent for creating subtle moments of peace before you ramp up with multiple knock out blows. If the rebels want to stay and fight, then fine. Do your Battle of Austerlitz by losing the battle at five'o'clock - and then winning it by simply coming back again as a meme at seven.


Some notes to go by:

- Five Overwatch units were sent into the sewers as a first wave apparently, with the other five being a vanguard deployment on the surface. I may be wrong, please correct me if so. Because if it is, then it entirely invalidates most of the issue where the Overwatch are being a particular issue.

 

[in pu]

As for the rebels that got killed during the sweep, they honestly had it coming. Namely one of them was caught geared up in the slums while they were pointing an SMG at another. So like, don't be surprised.

 

[Imperator RAD-X]

Spoiler: wtf

View attachment 8687

bruh are you kidding me, the Combine wrote to them in formal writing that they were going to raid? xDD

 

[Neonity]

View attachment 8688 bruh are you kidding me, the Combine wrote to them in formal writing that they were going to raid? xDD

 

[The Milkman]

View attachment 8689

Wtf go to sleep