Oppression, City-Side Responses, Cops, & Dispatch

[vilhjalmrf]

cop applications should be ooc and ic again

ooc applications produce better quality characters, rather than grinding for loyalist points on an uber loyalist who sees no fault with the combine at all and just exists to do workshifts and clean officer's boots

so ooc apps = better quality roleplayers and characters

I disagree. Even with OOC apps there aren't many who create 'better' quality characters. There are extremely few who do create interesting character sheets for their application. But even with that doesn't guarantee a good quality roleplayer. I prefer the IC process as we get to see how well the applicant roleplays which is much better than being greeted with an app explaining the role of civil protection and codes. I say this as a lunatic who has reviewed applications both in the new system and the old.

 

[maxi]

I disagree. Even with OOC apps there aren't many who create 'better' quality characters. There are extremely few who do create interesting character sheets for their application. But even with that doesn't guarantee a good quality roleplayer. I prefer the IC process as we get to see how well the applicant roleplays which is much better than being greeted with an app explaining the role of civil protection and codes. I say this as a lunatic who has reviewed applications both in the new system and the old.

ooc applications keep better roleplayers out. those better roleplayers wont be interested in the boring process of grinding to 160 sc to apply to become a cop, because it requires a specific character type

 

[vilhjalmrf]

ooc applications keep better roleplayers out. those better roleplayers wont be interested in the boring process of grinding to 160 sc to apply to become a cop, because it requires a specific character type

Sounds like a them issue. It's their choice. I can understand 160 sc being too grindy and maybe hopefully soon talks of lowering it can be made. But so far, we've been fine in this new system and have gotten some good quality roleplayers in our faction with it.

 

[maxi]

Sounds like a them issue. It's their choice. I can understand 160 sc being too grindy and maybe hopefully soon talks of lowering it can be made. But so far, we've been fine in this new system and have gotten some good quality roleplayers in our faction with it.

id love to play a cop but I also don’t love grinding out workshifts so we go full circle

 

[Rabid]

I gave up on getting into the faction specifically because I had to grind for 3+ days nonstop to get in with the next app cycle, and all it takes is one cop who finds my character annoying to set me back maybe half a day of trying to get desk jobs or grind workshifts, so I didn't actually play the character I wanted around 95% of cops at the time.

By the time I did get those points I was burned out and didn't stay to actually enlist.

I could write an interesting character with an OOC app easily because I want to play a cop, but I have no incentive to make an interesting character to play shoots-and-ladders with the SC system beforehand.

 

[maxi]

I gave up on getting into the faction specifically because I had to grind for 3+ days nonstop to get in with the next app cycle, and as I'm not going to do anything to risk having SC deducted that limits my options for playing my character as I would when they become a cop.

All it takes is one cop who finds my character annoying to set me back maybe half a day of trying to get desk jobs or grind workshifts. By the time I did get those points I was burned out and didn't stay to actually enlist.

I could write an interesting character with an OOC app easily because I want to play a cop, but I have no incentive to make an interesting character to play shoots-and-ladders with the SC system beforehand.

there was nothing wrong with the old system, it produced a good batch of corrupt, genuinely loyal, criminal and selfish metrocops; because people weren't hindered by the system prior

grinding to 160 sc now requires you to play a loyalist toesucker. there isnt another way. you cant be someone corrupt to skirt around the system.

that limits the characters getting into the faction. beforehand, we had really interesting and genuinely enjoyable characters to interact with. nowadays, we've got a load of shit from the bottom of the pile, not all cops are, but most are just the same. in the past month i've had my fingers threatened by some edgy metrocop with a bit of power, as well as others just being the most boring people to interact with

i have previously applied with a no-gooder sheriff, a combine test tube baby and prior pre-war escaped convict. each was interesting to write, and characters i would genuinely play. but now, if i have any hope of getting in, i am railroaded into being the best model citizen i can ever be. sure it makes sense ic, but it's boring as fuck ooc

 

[0xNiklas]

corrupt to skirt around the system.

Just go to workshift and workdesk and still be a slummer. Where is the problem, you might to grind - yes. But you can still be a cunt

 

[vilhjalmrf]

there was nothing wrong with the old system, it produced a good batch of corrupt, genuinely loyal, criminal and selfish metrocops; because people weren't hindered by the system prior

It's just a different direction we went with of how people apply. People can still be corrupt, loyal, selfish, a criminal, and be a bit insane. The new system literally does not hinder this at all. I am genuinely curious where you get this idea from.

grinding to 160 sc now requires you to play a loyalist toesucker. there isnt another way. you cant be someone corrupt to skirt around the system.

I've been doing workshifts and workdesk on my citizen char and let me tell you, I've done zero toe sucking. I just show up, don't talk much, get the job done, say Glory and go about my day and get my reward. Also ever heard of a thing called lying? My character is a literal scumbag but is doing just fine. Not a single violation on my record. You can be a corrupt lunatic and pretend to be a fan of the Combine. Plenty have done it.

that limits the characters getting into the faction. beforehand, we had really interesting and genuinely enjoyable characters to interact with. nowadays, we've got a load of shit from the bottom of the pile, not all cops are, but most are just the same. in the past month i've had my fingers threatened by some edgy metrocop with a bit of power, as well as others just being the most boring people to interact with

I don't know how you can say this when you don't have an exact clue of which unit got accepted in which system. Some of the edgy cops I've seen came mostly from the old system. I know this as a fact because I've dealt with both systems and that cop you mentioned I know of and they were from the old system.

i have previously applied with a no-gooder sheriff, a combine test tube baby and prior pre-war escaped convict. each was interesting to write, and characters i would genuinely play. but now, if i have any hope of getting in, i am railroaded into being the best model citizen i can ever be. sure it makes sense ic, but it's boring as fuck ooc

Let me tell you this, we don't expect you to be a 'patriot' at all. That's not the point at all for joining Civil Protection In-Character. You can join for housing, better food, family cohesion, and other benefits the faction provides for your character. There's plenty of people who are tier three citizens and they give zero fucks for the Combine. They just want that status for better pay and food. The same can be said for wanting to join Civil Protection.

You don't need to suck toes. You can get there just fine though it will be a bit of a grind to work towards.

 

[Wraygun]

have gotten some good quality roleplayers

Roleplay shouldn't be prioritized over the ability to handle the whitelist OOCly. I don't mean to shame the person in question, but someone was recently dewhitelisted for item transfer. What good is the ability to roleplay, when someone can barely respect the rules and boundaries of the server?

On a side note, a faction can never be fully handled ICly, no matter how hard this is being tried here and it shows. Sure, there are going to be some benefits from having most of the things handled in-charactert, but it won't solve the faction's OOC problems.

Additionally, it won't keep any 'bad' roleplayers out. I'll come up with some examples below:

I could go on and on with the examples, but I think I got my main point across. A good part of the CP roleplay right now is either goofy, unrealistic, silly, or just plain garbage and memery. And no, I won't "rEpOrT tHeM", you should have the least ounce of care to acknowledge that the issues that I've mentioned are present.

Not to mention that everytime an OOC issue is brought up (one that correlates to IC events), you get told to "deal with it ICly". You may as well tell the player to get lost. Rant over.

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

I fully recommend people asking changes to Civil Protection to try and apply for the faction and play it. It's the only truthful way you can get a grounds on approach for what you're trying to look for. Appearances and expectational value may be deceiving without it.

If this is gonna be an argument then I recommend people defending the state of the faction ("""cop mains""" for the most part) to give citizenRP a whirl for a week or so.

No demographic is more adversely impacted by a poorly handled Civil Protection faction than the people they wave unchecked IC authority over.

Also re 160 SC cap: People who value their time so little that they're willing to grind workshift RP all day =/= People who are good roleplayers. There is no correlation. The good RPers you get into the faction under that system are by pure chance - for every two of them you've filtered out seven more who have lives to attend to outside of the server.

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

Not to mention that everytime an OOC issue is brought up (one that correlates to IC events), you get told to "deal with it ICly". You may as well tell the player to get lost. Rant over.

even dealing with these issues ICly often requires jumping through a million OOC hoops and doing somersaults with the roleplay bureaucracy/charauths/CM/whoeverthefuck so while the principle on its own is respectable, it doesn't hold any validity here beyond being used as a put-down when people dont have the stomach to address problems head on

 

[vilhjalmrf]

Roleplay shouldn't be prioritized over the ability to handle the whitelist OOCly. I don't mean to shame the person in question, but someone was recently dewhitelisted for item transfer. What good is the ability to roleplay, when someone can barely respect the rules and boundaries of the server?

On a side note, a faction can never be fully handled ICly, no matter how hard this is being tried here and it shows. Sure, there are going to be some benefits from having most of the things handled in-charactert, but it won't solve the faction's OOC problems.

I assure you, it is not. We do get some interesting good role players in application, but we don't use that to overlook the person's behavior OOC. We have them apply with some OOC info so we can look into them and see them better not just IC but also OOC.

As for the specific person you mentioned that item transfer, not exactly sure what you mean. Are you saying what use is the roleplay during the IC process when they can be breaking the rules? If so, no one would have known. I mean how could we? It's just the same as always for anyone. No one suspected a thing. Not because that person can be a good quality roleplayer but because we never had suspicion to begin with till either we coincidentally check logs or when something seems out of place.

The faction is not fully handled ICly. There are times we step in OOCly when it requires it. I won't be name dropping but we do have our eyes on some people OOCly and do look into it when we can.

As for the screenshots you listed, this is just overall Willard's current issue. It's filled with a silliness in almost every aspect. CCA, Rebels, OTA even, CPs, CWU, DOB, etc. I've seen it everywhere. To crack down on it and heavily enforced the serious tone some desire won't always work best. I mean, where do we draw the line? Some situations real life can turn out silly. The first screenshot you posted I don't see much issue with but it can sure as hell warrant a re-education from a Rank Leader. The second screenshot is much more understandable. A literal shitpost is what that is and I can see how that alters the dark atmosphere that is suppose to exist there. Third one is, well. They were all high In-Character (and maybe Out-of-Character) so yeah I got nothing for that one. And last screenshot, for context we were doing things OOCly (admin stuff, setting vendor up) and weren't IC at all. I can assure you that as I was there.

If this is gonna be an argument then I recommend people defending the state of the faction ("""cop mains""" for the most part) to give citizenRP a whirl for a week or so.

No demographic is more adversely impacted by a poorly handled Civil Protection faction than the people they wave unchecked IC authority over.

Also re 160 SC cap: People who value their time so little that they're willing to grind workshift RP all day =/= People who are good roleplayers. There is no correlation. The good RPers you get into the faction under that system are by pure chance - for every two of them you've filtered out seven more who have lives to attend to outside of the server.

I should be more clear. We have the 160 sc to demonstrate how long you've been playing that character and to show that you are actively using it. Say if we only had a 110 SC requirement like before and required a month old character. You can literally just get to 110 within literally 2-3 days, stop playing the character, do something else, then wait till you meet the time requirement and finally apply.

We have that requirement in place not because we believe every person who grinds for 160 SC must be a good roleplayer.

even dealing with these issues ICly often requires jumping through a million OOC hoops and doing somersaults with the roleplay bureaucracy/charauths/CM/whoeverthefuck so while the principle on its own is respectable, it doesn't hold any validity here beyond being used as a put-down when people dont have the stomach to address problems head on

Not every issue we've faced so far has required a OOC discussion. The times we did came to OOC and chat with our members is when it comes to rulebreaking entirely as that is a OOC matter. As far as I've seen, especially recently, we have been dealing stuff OOCly and ICly respectfully. Can't believe I don't have a stomach...

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

We don't have that requirement in place because we believe every person who grinds for 160 SC must be a good roleplayer.

My point is that this is a false assumption. The only thing you're filtering for is players who are willing to sink hours and 'activity' into the server in general, regardless of whether they're in a position they enjoy playing. Technically this is a working method, but to say it contributes positively to getting 'good roleplayers' into the faction in any measure (when plenty of people have provided arguments to the opposite being equally if not more so the case) is an illusion at best.

Not every issue we've faced so far has required a OOC discussion. The times we did came to OOC and chat with our members is when it comes to rulebreaking entirely as that is a OOC matter. As far as I've seen, especially recently, we have been dealing stuff OOCly and ICly respectfully.

I'm sure you're right about this, and I believe you do speak from experience, and so do I from my own as well as the people I know who've often been shut down on an OOC level for trying to do things IC that seem to 'disrupt' the ecosystem of the server in any small way, even when it makes sense with their character to do so or benefits the server as a whole. It's a difficult thing to see from the POV of people who actually make decisions on these issues because they're not the ones getting shafted for it & ultimately believe they're doing right by the server.

Can't believe I don't have a stomach...

Not directed at you personally. I'm talking about people who use 'deal with it IC' as an insult knowing full well that OOC staff bureaucracy is baked in to the way things are done on this server and is often leveraged to stop IC initiatives from happening. Willard is not a liberal roleplay utopia where the majority of situations are strictly handled ICly, so IC is definitely not the solution to every problem, as nice as it would be if it were. You admit as much in your post.

 

[vilhjalmrf]

To correctly rephrase and say what I mean is this.

OOC applications: There really isn't much issues with it. We just wanted to go off the beaten path and try something else that we think can be more fun and interesting. Though I have mentioned one flaw that I can think of for OOC apps, it isn't the reason we move away from it nor for the sake of, 'What is a better alternative to reviewing applications?' Just simple fun and roleplay.

IC applications: I personally like them as people get to rp their character throughout the IC process. Allowing us to see how well they perform. We don't expect Grade A+ roleplayers during the interview and we do give some people a slap on the wrist and let them try out the faction as we aren't super strict with it (though we should provide more useful feedback to our applicants but there is a lot of work on our hands and IRL stuff). It certainly does have a few flaws and it is not perfect. But you have to keep in mind that it is a new system we are trying out so there will be flaws as mentioned. Just hopefully in time it improves.

160 Grind: I agree that no one wants to waste their time with grinding. But as mentioned before, this is the first time we try out something like this in Willard. So I like to think of this as a test run. Though it does not mean we will be switching back to OOC applications anytime soon, just means the requirements and process for IC applications will possibly change overtime. The intention for this requirement isn't meant to weed out the good and bad roleplayers, just one solution we thought can help fill the void of a person's inactivity.

Both application systems can work. IC applications needing a few tweaks is all and it'll get there. I won't say anything about the IC/OOC matters subject as I believe I said it right the first time.

I'm sure you're right about this, and I believe you do speak from experience, and so do I from my own as well as the people I know who've often been shut down on an OOC level for trying to do things IC that seem to 'disrupt' the ecosystem of the server in any small way, even when it makes sense with their character to do so or benefits the server as a whole. It's a difficult thing to see from the POV of people who actually make decisions on these issues because they're not the ones getting shafted for it & ultimately believe they're doing right by the server.

I like to assure you nothing on that level has happened (within Civil Protection that is). Most IC things that ever occurred were handled IC properly and rarely do issues arise that become so big within our faction. So far nothing too big disrupted the entire ecosystem. Some minor inconveniences here and there but we investigate them like all issues before taking action.

My point is that this is a false assumption. The only thing you're filtering for is players who are willing to sink hours and 'activity' into the server in general, regardless of whether they're in a position they enjoy playing. Technically this is a working method, but to say it contributes positively to getting 'good roleplayers' into the faction in any measure (when plenty of people have provided arguments to the opposite being equally if not more so the case) is an illusion at best.

I believe you are right in this factor. I know a few good roleplayers from experience and one of them really doesn't want to go through the grind as a citizen which is understandable. I have been re-considering the social credit requirement but all I can really do is suggest and advise as I am no Faction Leader so it's not guaranteed. Just one of those things that won't be changed, at least not anytime soon.

 

[Rabid]

We have the 160 sc to demonstrate how long you've been playing that character and to show that you are actively using it. Say if we only had a 110 SC requirement like before and required a month old character. You can literally just get to 110 within literally 2-3 days, stop playing the character, do something else, then wait till you meet the time requirement and finally apply.

Is that bad, though?

When I made my character I made them to play a cop - not to be a rebel or join any other faction. My only goal was to get enough points to apply for that faction in particular, so I'm not going to do anything to risk that spot if I can help it. After I had 5 points deducted for shift+tabbing I decided I was only going to play until I had the points then keep my character alive until I could apply.

Like others have said, I'd heavily reconsider the points and/or allow people to go the OOC route again.

 

[vilhjalmrf]

Is that bad, though?

When I made my character I made them to play a cop - not to be a rebel or join any other faction. My only goal was to get enough points to apply for that faction in particular, so I'm not going to do anything to risk that spot if I can help it. After I had 5 points deducted for shift+tabbing I decided I was only going to play until I had the points then keep my character alive until I could apply.

Like others have said, I'd heavily reconsider the points and/or allow people to go the OOC route again.

Not bad, no. We just prefer that you use a character that has activity/history.

 

[maxi]

Not bad, no. We just prefer that you use a character that has activity/history.

why not just vet to ensure that players havent been inactive af

 

[Vulpes Callida]

cop applications should be ooc and ic again

ooc applications produce better quality characters, rather than grinding for loyalist points on an uber loyalist who sees no fault with the combine at all and just exists to do workshifts and clean officer's boots

so ooc apps = better quality roleplayers and characters

I farmed the SC and I am one of the most forgiving and human units in the server (as well as Universal Union-critical). In fact I'd argue the new wave of cops who got in through SC are much closer to being down to earth and lenient than robocops. I'd state taglines but they're probably going to get meta'd to hell and back.

None of the people who have agreed to this reply even have the CP whitelist (or interact with Civil Protection in any meaningful way, at least during my hours of playtime, which are plenty).

IC and OOC applications are not indicatives of better or worse characters, both can be equally cheated to the same degree. Only the 160SC requirement acts as an OOC filter to ensure the person in question is acquainted with the city and has a modicum of playtime so they aren't completely lost on arrival. Whether the system is favourable to the CP as a whole or not is up to the leads to decide.

Like will said, and I 100% agree:

So far I think the Civil Protection faction is overall fine.

I'm starting to notice how the people who suggest these things have little to no connection or experience with the actual matters being discussed. Not that it should be enough reason to silence an argument, but it is a little disheartening to argue opinions that are so disconnected from my usual experience that I can't even understand the viewpoints behind them at times. There are a million points to be made about the CP, like will also suggests:

Only issue I see currently is some of our player's roleplay quality within the faction (mostly a IC issue) and among other things.

Or in terms of balance, response, progression, attitude (IC and OOC), faction relations, inactivity within the faction, leadership, whether the CP should be more or less specialized, whether crime punishments are too harsh, etc.

But none of them are reflected here. It feels like it's just facelift and changes for the sake of changes without real weight behind them and I don't really like that (personally).

 

[Maroon]

To finally put a lid on this, we'll be straying away from the 'solutions' provided in the OP. We're already going to look at the ranking system in the near future to see if it's ideal, but things like the application process and anonymity will not be changed at the moment. Ideally, I want to implement an off-duty system as soon as possible, but our idea requires quite some development work, so that will be delayed for a while.