C8 has an outlands where rebels can plan, C17 had numerous base locations that werent already fucked/found etc etc from the get go, C24 has a slum with a few buildings with hiding spots BUT they are already taken by the owner, a sewer packed with spores that isnt really that big/interesting and a few sewer bases that are taken by in game shut-ins because they see C24 as too dangerous, literally on C8 I found rebel groups in an instant, on every character I made, it took me 2 MONTHS to find a rebel group that was WILLING TO TALK TO ME in C24, after the I17 event I found other rebels and it is still RADIO SILENCE apart from one and they are chill for talking to me tho. C8 is just built different, its mad cool, has an outlands, plenty of buildings, gives rebels a false sense of security, it is literally perfect.
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0xNiklas
Radio Bob Approved
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Either back to the good times of v3 or a v5 map which is downgraded on details, but more playroom. Mixture between v3 and v4. V4 for the area for CCA, CMU, CWU and such and v3 for the area
T
The_Grass_Man
Guest
fuck c24, d47 supremacy frrr
alessiodoomboy
Radio Bob Approved
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- Mar 24, 2022
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C24 has a lot of map design problems that won't just be fixed by a V5 because the Triumph/Victory design and the facism aesthetic are pretty core to what C24 is despite being subpar design choices, especially with how it clashes with some other creative choices Willard as a server makes, such as valuing undercover rebels (cool) but the map design, among other things, making CPs pretty densely clumped in any given area within the city (not cool).
Seriously, why are there only two streets in this whole ass district I get that you can't exactly recreate a city AND an underground AND a slums in Gmod but I say less attention to the sewers and more attention to the city itself since you can't even be down there for that long or else you'll get xen cancer and die.
Seriously, why are there only two streets in this whole ass district I get that you can't exactly recreate a city AND an underground AND a slums in Gmod but I say less attention to the sewers and more attention to the city itself since you can't even be down there for that long or else you'll get xen cancer and die.
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Cops can respond to the scene of any crime in under a minute because everything is so small.
Its strange seeing how the map has changed from V1, The first version of the map was MASSIVE, cops had to drive APCs around to get to places quickly, but that made the server feel empty because everyone was so far away from eachother.
V4 is incredibly tiny, everyone is bunched together, its good if you like talking to people, but terrible if you want to do any rebel stuff.
I cover all of this and more on my thread about why V1 has no flaws and we should switch back to it right now
I miss C24 V1
I love C24 V1, It had so much cool stuff. Keep in mind that I am *very* biased when it comes to V1, it was the map used when I first started playing HL2 RP, I have a ton of good memories of it, it is likely that my nostalgia is preventing me from remembering the bad parts about the map. I...
willard.network
M
Merlinsclaw
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- Thread Author
- #48
hot take incoming
small maps are good. when you play a small map and you have 40 people on, the streets fill packed and things feel alive.
however city 24 isn’t good at this. it’s a small map, sure, but it’s far to complicated. there can be 50 people on, 10 in Victory, and then the rest are scattered across a confusing map. The slums look dead because of how much of a maze they are
In something like City 8, it’s incredibly easy to find a group to roleplay with. The streets feel alive when the population is high. You get the point.
small maps are good. when you play a small map and you have 40 people on, the streets fill packed and things feel alive.
however city 24 isn’t good at this. it’s a small map, sure, but it’s far to complicated. there can be 50 people on, 10 in Victory, and then the rest are scattered across a confusing map. The slums look dead because of how much of a maze they are
In something like City 8, it’s incredibly easy to find a group to roleplay with. The streets feel alive when the population is high. You get the point.
Vulpes Callida
Radio Bob Approved
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I agree on the fact small maps are good. But I think personally this iteration of C24 is huge. Gives the illusion of being small, but it's very vertical. Pretty sure it's close to the brush limit on hammer (also I guess it has to do with it being very decorated, which I appreciate)
(I say this, but you are still 100% right about your criticism of it)
I know it's just a suggestion, but city 8 is really, really bad (speaking, of course, about the base, original map, not the 1984 different canal spinoffs, re-edits, and versions with outlands and 3 more sublayers). I don't know how or why people like that map. There's like 3 shops (4 if you count the shitty stall in the slums) and the aesthetic is frankly fairly bad. the "sewers" are just one big long tunnel with a singular room in them. it has a lot of space wasted on trying to make the nexus entrance look fancy. and dear god, is the nexus bad. 90% of the map is apc tunnels otherwise unaccessable or unused most of the time. it's as bad as c45 if not worse.
(stop watching anime)
thinking about it, I'm not sure if conventionally "good" small maps exist. surely, C18 is acceptable, but it's not everyone's cup of tea by a longshot... lots of dead space too. i17 is good, but I'd argue that it became more of a medium map, large in some variants. Which ones are even on the menu?
Rabid
Radio Bob Approved
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You have to remember C8 was made in 2009-2010 for TnB and specifically leaned into that aesthetic for their iteration of HL2RP in the same way C24 leans very heavily into it being a loyalist city with fascist aesthetics.
Back then the idea of a 'modern' HL2RP setup just didn't exist. They didn't need fancy sewers or what have you because rebels didn't live there.
The problem with V4, as it stands, is that it was made at a point in time where CityRP was suffering and actively took a baseball cap to its knees. Rebels get more slums and a massive sewers while every other faction has to put up with, again, most of the city being turned into slums and end up jammed into two entire streets.
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This is the entire issue with C24 v4 and v3 alike.
The city is so uninspired in its design and layout when compared to the slums its kinda nuts. Two straight roads that lead only to restricted areas or total dead ends.
Making the slums apart of the city proper, and not treating it like some outland extension of it would be a big step forward for the map. This is already partially done, its nowhere near as bad as it once was, but I think fully integrating the slums into the general city-scape would do wonders for both civs and rebels. Rebels get more targets, as attacking anything in the slums is literally self-defeating since they basically own it, and civs get more room to actually play around in. (Course not sure if the container nightmare has been solved, which would very much cripple this if not)
Outside of that, just adding a more complex, winding and interconnected design to the main streets would pretty much fix most issues, far as I see it.
Rabid
Radio Bob Approved
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True but even in V3 you still felt like you had room. You had the park, the loop, the RB's, the tunnel between the streets, etc. Sure it felt like the city was the less focussed upon than the slums but compared to V4 it may as well have been V1.
No wonder people migrate to the slums when the alternative is to walk up and down an entire two (2!) streets.
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That's the thing I love V1 for, it may have been huge, but there was so much to explore in the city
*technically* there are three roads if you include the road right in front of the nexus, but nobody does any RP there because there. All of the roads in the city are almost the exact same size, if you stand on one end of the road you can see everything on it.
Personally, I think that locations are incredibly important to roleplay, people tend to roleplay differently in different places, but the problem is that V4 doesn't have any good PUBLIC locations to roleplay in compared to the older maps.
V1 had a number of public locations to RP in:
-The massive park that people rarely did anything in because it was so massive
-Alleyways for doing shady stuff around the city
-The reception area connecting the three main union groups, someone would usually stand at the front desk and handle reception services for ALL the UU groups, meaning they had more work to do and more people to talk to.
-A movie theater that I never remember getting used, the UU entertainment groups back then did do plays and stuff one time I think.
-Outdoors RDC located on the street.
-Massive hard light bridge that cops could use as a checkpoint to search people entering and exiting the nice part of the city, the bridge could be turned off if they wanted to restrict access. You could sneak under the bridge too.
-Citizen housing was located on the other side of the bridge, it had a small park in the middle of it.
-The sewers beneath the loyalist section of the city was small and linear, if you wanted to get to the slums or rebel part of the map, you would need to go across the bridge.
-There is a massive underground rebel base beneath the outlands portion of the map, it was so large that citizens would usually have access to most of it.
-The ruined buildings in the outlands
-The outlands bars and lakeside was a hotspot for citizens and rebels, people did caravan events there.
These are just the public locations, players had a ton of places to choose from and that lead to everyone getting spread out and some places never getting used, making the map feel empty. The most commonly used places were:
-Outdoors RDC
-Outlands bars and lakeside
-Bridge
-Rebel base
-Reception area
V4 has a few public locations to RP in as well:
-Victory street sees a ton of action on V4, there is ALWAYS someone there, and the storefronts there are pretty active too because citizens can easily see when they are open.
-The RDC was mixed with the citizen and loyalist apartments and the three UU factions, but the reception area has been restricted to the CMU, it is very cluttered.
-Willard Street/the street in front of the nexus doesn't have anything on it asides from an entrance to the loyalist apartments and the nexus.
-Triumph Sees half the action that Victory does, but it still gets a good deal of people on it, there arent all that many stores, the main reason people go to triumph is to go to the slums.
-The slums is pretty big on V4, but I never really see many people there when I try to do mini-events. Personally I think people are afraid to RP in the slums because it is too easy for the cops to come in and ruin everything, the slums are less than a minute away from the nexus if you run.
-The massive sewer system that makes up half the entire map that people CAN'T RP in because of the spores that kill you if you stay down there for too long. The only reason this sewer system exists is so rebels can farm trash bags, it's terrible for RP unless you are a vort.
By trying to make the rebels closer to the city, it made it impossible for rebels to do the kind of RP they could before, you can barely get away with doing anything illegal in the slums because the cops can just sweep it the second they hear someone snitch (and people are going to snitch).
Keeping the rebels far from the city is a good thing, its what I liked about V1, you could have things like fight clubs in the outlands and citizen-run markets, it was amazing, but if you do something like that in V4 you get smashed.
Its hard to keep this kind of thing in balance, you want rebels to have the ability to RP but you also want them to contribute to city RP, but if you keep them too close to the city they won't be able to RP because cops can stop them from doing anything.
Vulpes Callida
Radio Bob Approved
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The fact it is an old map doesn't mean it is exempt from criticism. I was around in the TnB days and before them. C18 was the first dedicated HL2RP map, and it covers more bases and pillars than C8 ever did or will. Even back in OpenAura, there were already resistances. There exists an overinfatuation with that map. Also curiously enough it suffers from literally the same problem you mentioned V4 having, but worse, which is the fact it literally has only 2 streets.
To add, CaptainSneed reacted to me with "X", so that's how you pretty much know you're right about something these days
But otherwise you're right. The sewers in V4 are big, very big, but given the necessity for filters you require for them I think they're mostly a waste of space. I'm a bit torn on this filter/spore mechanic, but I understand it's in place to avoid excessive looting or minging into areas you shouldn't normally, or frequently visit, without having an admin constantly oversee the area. I sort of wish we just had more street and slum and had the sewers act more like connecting passageways (which is kind of what they attempt to be, but they don't really connect much...) but on a smaller scale. ATM, it is a concerning 40-50% of the map.
I don't mind the otherwise claustrophobic feeling of the map, but it feels too... Gamey, at times? I appreciate the interconnectivity between buildings and all, but it's more a hallway than something usable. As you and RedHot said, the city should feel more like something you'd traverse, in its totality. I've not played D47 for long, but I think it ticked those boxes (as an example map, despite it being way too big for its own boots).
I think that's not necessarily true. We've restrictions on CZ patrols to a degree, and we know it's a dangerous place. The "slums" of a city, like RedHot said, should feel part of the actual city, and should be subject to the same rules with just some IC and OOC leniency. I hate to see even map debates turned into yet more "arguments" in favour of OOC resistance protection. Like... I am aware of certain groups OOC that operate within city bounds, let alone the slums, without (much) issue. I think the conception many have of Resistance RP should heavily change. IMO this map is incredibly favourable towards resistance, so it feels like a bit of crying for the sake of crying. Like, nearly absurdly so. 60%+ of it is areas they can use to hide or run away, and it's a maze.
That said, it's true there exist a few cops who take into "investigating" (cough, cough, interrupting RP) a little too seriously.
Outlands are a touchy subject. I understand the appeal behind what you said but I'm just not sure if they fit in a city RP setting. It just brings conflict by splitting RP hubs away, and it also attracts the people who just want to run and gun like they're walking armories. And I think the whole point of the latest posts was to argue in favour of having people be together to increase the chances of roleplay. Which the outlands directly work against.
Like... What's the point of playing resistance, if you want to structure it so you can never be virtually caught?
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- Dec 25, 2020
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For resistance players? sure, the map is great for people that go into the heart of the city to plant bombs and stuff, but for slum dwellers who want to do illegal stuff that wouldnt hurt the combine (like making fight clubs, setting up marketplaces), they arent able to do that without getting caught unless they go down into the sewers to do it, and RPing down there is nearly impossible.
The server has been missing an important part of slums RP for a while because its way too easy for cops to stop it, slums RP is about crime, not about resistance, you shouldnt ever feel safe there, not because of the threat of cops, but because of the unpredictable slum dwellers.
ICly the sizes of the various slums around the city have increased after a failed construction project, patrolling all of them would be nearly impossible. But OOCly the civil protection still have a huge presence in the slums, it doesn't feel like much has changed asides from the aesthetics of the map.