Shoot 2 Kill: The worst combat system for HL2RP.

[Equinox]

Since the beginning of HL2RP there has been this big issue with trying to find a good combat system. It is a conundrum with seemingly no solution, and thousands of pages have been poured into discussing how it should be done. After literal years of debate, there exists three systems that seem to rise above all else: S2RP, S2K, and S2M.

In these days though, even S2M has begun to fade away, leaving only S2RP and S2K. They are easily described. S2RP is the usage of turn-based roleplay and roleplay only to carry out combat, and S2K is the complete absence of roleplay in favor of smooth, high action combat that is more realistic.

But this thread isn't meant to be a history lesson or an instruction on what is and how to carry out S2RP and S2K. It's a complaint, if not a rant on the worst combat system ever used in any Gmod roleplay server, S2K. Disclaimer: This is a rant on S2K, not its supporters. If you take this personally and proceed to flip out I will laugh at you.

So what better way to start the rant than focus on the benefits of S2K?

Benefits of S2K

• S2K is smooth and fast paced. Combat is resolved quickly, and with intensity, like an actual firefight.
• S2K requires little planning and set up. It can be started on the fly and usually ends just as fast.
• S2K is quick. Conflicts resolved in around 1 or 2 minutes, if not even within a few seconds.
• It can be cool? (This is a popular opinion, not really a benefit)

The myriad of issues with S2K.
So we got some good benefits here. I'm not going to dismantle any of them. I don't need to. The negatives that come along with S2K far outweigh the benefits. So what would these issues be?

It isn't roleplay.
You'd think on a roleplay server, that you'd roleplay, right? Other roleplay mediums do it. Chat roleplays roleplay fights. Forums roleplay fights. Even the decades old tabletop RPG's roleplay fights. Why is it that suddenly, when we hit HL2RP, we throw that out the window? S2K just isn't roleplay. What it is, is a neutered down Counter Strike match. That's not a flame or an exaggeration, that is literally what S2K is. Why in the world would I want to use S2K when I could just go play Counter Strike? That also isn't a mocking statement. I'm not getting anything out of S2K, and neither are you. The moment it starts, we run into a very big issue that shows up next:

It goes against what a roleplay server is supposed to be.
As I said earlier, I along with everyone else who is serious about it wants to roleplay on an RP server. I am not here to play Counter Strike. I'm not here to play an FPS. What part of S2K involves roleplay? The answer is nothing. Your character does not matter in S2K. The moment it starts, it isn't your character anymore. You are the person playing S2K. And now, anyone who gets dragged into this also isn't roleplaying. The sewers are now your next CS:GO map. I sure hope the map developer took FPS map making into account. While we are at it...

Your character means absolutely nothing.
Harsh right? It's objectively true with S2K. One can try and say that it is "impacting" their character or something, but why should it? Your character didn't actually participate in combat, and neither did the enemy character you were fighting. Did your character have some form of weapons training? Were they a marksman in the past? Perhaps they have some sort of inherent advantage or disadvantage? Don't bother answering, cause it doesn't matter. You can go ahead and throw all that out the window, as well as any roleplay you wanted to have with them. You can't even talk in S2K, because doing so means you are a sitting duck for someone to run in and fill with bullets. Again, when S2K starts, it isn't your character anymore, it's you.

I hope you are good at First Person Shooters!
What, you thought you were here to RP? We established three times already that it ain't happening. When S2K starts, you better hope you've been brushing up on your twitch aiming. You aren't relying on your character anymore, cause that super shy character who's afraid of their own shadow just took down two of your Civil Protection comrades like it was nothing. Where'd he learn to do that? Who knows, but I hope you know how to do that. Skill is everything in HL2RP combat. Again, I hope you weren't expecting roleplayed combat on a roleplay server, because you are not getting it with S2K. Get practicing!

"My ping is too high! I'm lagging out!"
You lost because you live in Australia and watched as your target proceeded to teleport five feet to the left and place a bullet in your skull? Tough shit buddy, deal with it. If only you had paid more money for better internet, your character would be alive now... So much for all that practicing you did huh? Should have known that you needed an FPS-worthy internet connection before joining an HL2 Roleplay server.

Wounds mean nothing.
You also become a superhuman in S2K. Cool right? Any hits you take mean nothing because, well, this isn't roleplay. I'm sure the enemy will remember the 10 pistols shots they took after the battle, suddenly drop to their knees, and kill off their character, cause that totally happens with S2K. It never happens. They took a couple shots, got healed up, and then tattoo'd your character's name on top of the scar.

This totally won't start any drama, ever!
I'm not even going to bother touching on the fuckton of problems that show up when you start looking at how to manage S2K such as how you start it, what you are allowed to do in it, and more because in the end any solution will still be incredibly flawed and will end up causing arguments, on top of the fact that each solution only leads to a more structured pile of crap that is S2K. God forbid PK's are done through S2K. Nothing like having your character deleted for something that they had no part in.

In Summary
S2K, is not made for, HL2RP. Seriously now, I understand the appeal behind S2K. I really do. I've had fun with before, and it has its moments, but it just isn't meant to be a part of a roleplay server. It doesn't fit the primary audience, and it just isn't roleplay.

So why did I make this rant?
Because there is this idea going around that S2K should be made the default combat system for an HL2RP server, specifically TeslaCloud. I'll be honest and say that I feel truly sorry for anyone that has to be forced into S2K, simply because the opposition disagreed to S2RP (if that was even an option).

I get it, smooth combat is enjoyable, but why are we trying to push this in a roleplay gamemode? It doesn't make sense. It is the most Out of Character combat system possible, and has absolutely nothing to do with RP at all. I'd rather have a long drawn out combat sequence of roleplay than no roleplay at all.

So what do I think S2K deserves?
I actually think we should keep S2K. You may be wondering why I don't want it stricken and outlawed, but in all honesty, player freedom to do what they want is a big thing in a good roleplay server. What I don't want is to have S2K made the default. Use S2RP. Hell, make our own combat system somehow. Anything other than S2K. Even S2M is preferable, and that's saying something. (Don't use S2M, please.)

End Rant

 

[Sectus]

I understand the arguments presented here but I feel that the primary benefit of S2K is that it reduces the amount of arguments over the "legitness" of a fight to absolutely zero, and this is too great a benefit to be discarded. In my many years of experience in HL2RP there is one common factor in nearly every single interaction of physical or weapon-based conflict that always occurs when the fight is anything more than S2K, and that is the arguments.

~~~​

A tale from the perspective of Civil Protection:​

You are patrolling alone in a safe area one day. There are other officers present but they are in other parts of the city. You feel safe in telling yourself nothing unusual will happen. A bluesuit citizen approaches you and begins insulting you. You are too bored to engage with such pointless and clear "cop baiting", so you tell them to piss off. They know that after a certain point you will be forced to escalate the situation, so they shove you (without RP) and run away. You ignite your stun baton and chase after them, as is the norm in this setting.

The citizen flees into an apartment building, and as you round a corner you come face to face with two other citizens who are armed with a pipe and a baseball bat respectively. They (seemingly with messages copied beforehand for when you rounded the corner) post in LOOC stating that they are attempting to jump you. They RP swinging their bat at you and demand that you react. Quickly. You being who you are, do not want to lose your character (if you're mugged and your weapons are lost, you'll be executed. If you fight back, you'll possibly be beaten to death before you can fight off your opponents). Your instinct and limited options tell you to fight back, and the aggravation caused by the fact that this entire scenario was spawned by an out of character, not roleplayed push causes you to get heated. The rebels insist in LOOC that the hits would have knocked you out. You argue back in LOOC telling them that is not the case because of some arbitrary reason (distance from attackers, force of swings due to 'malnutrition', etc). This further aggravates the attackers who insist you're delaying to wait for backup.

The situation spirals from there into either two outcomes:

A. The rebels are captured or killed by responding units who inevitably notice that there is ongoing conflict and naturally migrate toward it with every passing minute despite the fact that "in roleplay" the time would pass much slower and there is no feasible way units would get that close that quickly. The event then goes to the forums as the rebels are upset and the argument continues there until an admin puts their foot down.

B. Server administration becomes involved, and they force the cops to acknowledge that they have lost this scenario. One unit is downed while the citizens are allowed to take his weapons and run. The admins make the cops wait a brief time before beginning pursuit, and a manhunt begins where either the citizens get away for long enough that they can log off until they're forgotten, or they're immediately caught and executed - in which case the event then goes to the forums to be debated endlessly.

~~~​

In either event, one side is upset by the outcome of the situation and brings it to the forums. If the rebels win, the cops insist the administration is favoring and protecting the rebels, and "realistically" they would be closed on quite quickly. If the cops win, the rebels point out that the cop under attack was most likely stalling because he (and everyone around them) know that other cops will naturally migrate toward the conflict to increase their chances of blocking off and capturing the attackers.

My primary point is this: S2K is and always will be the most effective means of communicating conflict in HL2RP. There is simply far too much potential for elongated arguments and debates over situations which are actually quite simple. This causes bad blood between players and absolutely belabors the admin team. In S2K, there is no argument. Either you were jumped and killed (or "knocked out" depending on the server's rules on melee weapons) before you could react, or you were able to draw your weapon and kill both parties or get them to surrender in some capacity.

This is not in complete disagreement with your original post, but I will say the only point I would vouch in favor of S2RP in HL2RP is when it is mutually agreed upon beforehand by two parties who have intertwined storylines - their only interest in the conflict then being the development of their characters' story.

tl;dr: S2RP bad, causes too many arguments and doesn't have enough benefits to warrant its overall or even moderate usage.

 

[Equinox]

-snip-

I will agree in that S2RP is flawed. As you said, it spawns a lot of arguments and can take a long time in some cases.

What I don't agree with is that S2K is the most effective means of communicating conflict. Yes, it's quick and simple. That's a really big benefit, but there's no point in communicating conflict when the means of doing so doesn't even fit the purpose of the server. Beyond that, it doesn't even take into consideration the players behind the conflict. There is no fun in S2K when the player knows they are just going to lose from the start. I've heard plenty of players show extreme distaste for S2K because if they have to partake in it, they are screwed, simply put. Either their computer won't handle it, their internet won't handle it, or their skill won't handle it. That isn't a bad thing on their part though, they shouldn't have to worry about these things. They joined a roleplay server. So why should these players be condemmed to eternal failure for conflict because of something that shouldn't even be in the gamemode in the first place?

I know, S2RP can have some big flaws, but it is at least usable and doesn't have near as many flaws as S2K. But why use S2RP? With a team of talented coders, and creative minds, I'm sure we can come up with a combat system that is better. Even with S2RP or our own system, it doesn't mean we can't allow S2K as long as both parties agree.

The worst thing you can do to someone in an RP is effectively change their character's fate for an OOC influence. That is effectively what happens with S2K. You are changing their character's story and progression because they couldn't pull some OOC CS skills.

Just cause its fast and simple doesn't mean its good. Quality outcomes take quality time and work. I'd rather spend half an hour (and more) roleplaying than have to let my OOC skill carry my story.

 

[TheDeNuke]

I agree with everything that Equinox has said.

At this point there must be a alternative system then just S2RP or S2K because S2RP is a drama magnet and S2K is the death of roleplay. We have literal months until this server launches and I really do think that we can come up with something else before then.

 

[Sectus]

I agree with everything that Equinox has said.

At this point there must be a alternative system then just S2RP or S2K because S2RP is a drama magnet and S2K is the death of roleplay. We have literal months until this server launches and I really do think that we can come up with something else before then.

I doubt an appropriate stand-in can be developed in two months. I would say at the very least we're going to have to tolerate S2K until this supposed replacement is developed.

If we're going for an automated system it would have to be just that: automated, but also keep in the RP aspect of things without putting in so much player agency that debate or arguments form as a result. Effectively it would be a system that decides the outcome based on stats that you then react to the decisions made by that system with your RP.

 

[Flanders]

https://streamable.com/c8x03

I've circulated this clip around for a while now, it's from an old community that's now dead and waiting for s&box to release so they can make their hl2rp stuff on that game instead of Garry's Mod.

I've always thought this was a great solution to the issue. It replaces muscle memory FPS skill with strategy awareness skills, and leaves more room for roleplay. A proper fleshed out system revolving around this video's core mechanics would be a creative, functional solution that would be entirely unique to TC.
Devs to my knowledge have commented on working on a system similar to this for a while, but have made it clear that at the start of the server it will be S2K and S2RP because making complex things like this takes time and thorough testing.

Speaking from OTA's perspective, as of now, I can't see us ever engaging in firefights that aren't S2K without a complete and total reworking of the faction both mechanically and ideologically. Providing challenge and retaliation to resistance actions via the threat of good S2Kers is what the faction has been about for the past couple of years - It's a balancing tool.

I agree S2K has some flaws, but it works fine enough for right now that I don't think we should be bending over backwards to change it until the development team is certain they can provide a new system that is original and functional, and appeals to both aspects of gameplay.

 

[TheDeNuke]

OTA are a faction of implicit punishment for the resistance effectively stepping over the line that should never be crossed. I can understand why in their instance they would be S2K since generally one is not meant to survive a OTA attack without outright running. For that very reason the OTA should almost never be deployed because of the very fact that they are practically impossible to kill and force S2K conditions.

I still don't support S2K, but I can tolerate the usage of S2K with OTA.

 

[Chez]

https://streamable.com/c8x03

I've circulated this clip around for a while now, it's from an old community that's now dead and waiting for s&box to release so they can make their hl2rp stuff on that game instead of Garry's Mod.

I've always thought this was a great solution to the issue. It replaces muscle memory FPS skill with strategy awareness skills, and leaves more room for roleplay. A proper fleshed out system revolving around this video's core mechanics would be a creative, functional solution that would be entirely unique to TC.
Devs to my knowledge have commented on working on a system similar to this for a while, but have made it clear that at the start of the server it will be S2K and S2RP because making complex things like this takes time and thorough testing.

Speaking from OTA's perspective, as of now, I can't see us ever engaging in firefights that aren't S2K without a complete and total reworking of the faction both mechanically and ideologically. Providing challenge and retaliation to resistance actions via the threat of good S2Kers is what the faction has been about for the past couple of years - It's a balancing tool.

I agree S2K has some flaws, but it works fine enough for right now that I don't think we should be bending over backwards to change it until the development team is certain they can provide a new system that is original and functional, and appeals to both aspects of gameplay.

holy fuck that looks amazing

 

[Sectus]

OTA are a faction of implicit punishment for the resistance effectively stepping over the line that should never be crossed. I can understand why in their instance they would be S2K since generally one is not meant to survive a OTA attack without outright running. For that very reason the OTA should almost never be deployed because of the very fact that they are practically impossible to kill and force S2K conditions.

I still don't support S2K, but I can tolerate the usage of S2K with OTA.

OTA are as I've always described them: yes, a faction, but also yes, a brick wall with which the server maintains its usual 'status quo'. Unlike other communities however, I believe the intent with OTA and Combine in general is yes to have them be very strong and difficult to unsettle, but it IS possible through enough concentrated effort over a long period of time. I doubt it'll ever get to an extreme like a city or multiple being unsettled without some kind of organized action or event, but the possibility has been stated that it will be there.

 

[Robert]

Hello.

Thank you for sending in your concerns surrounding the S2K system. Now, it might be possible to use S2RP as a default and S2K as optional/OTA but i do have my own concerns. Of course, both system are flawed in many ways, though I have never been able to get used to S2RP due to the fact the time, arguments/drama and... most importantly, short range combat issues.

What short range issues am i talking about? Well in S2RP, everyone does have a equal chance of winning and losing, however... in a scenario where a man with a shotgun is going up against 1 or 2 people at close range tends to result in maybe a guy armed with a knife and the other with a 9mm pistol or something. Now whats the problem you may ask? Problem is that a shotgun for example wont miss at that range and S2RP makes use of the rolling system, another awful and flawed system. This gives a awful chance for a shotgun to SOMEHOW miss at a range where it would normally be king in. I generally feel that both OTA and short range engagements should be S2K, or at least have short range S2RP with a few changes like the roll system being gone and instead having play to logic elements in there instead. (Unless it is melee combat)

But wait, theres more.

Medium to long range fights... how are they done with S2RP... barely. Any S2RP system in the past has always begged the question, "how on earth is fights at range carried out", well.... not even i know as it never really was S2RP back then, peeps dropped it for S2M unless they were using a sniper where they wanted to properly RP their shot on a unsuspecting player. (Before the player does their shot, he pm's the player in question) but of course that is flawed too as the guy can move in that time and that rp for a shot is out the window. Unless you want someone to stand and wait for the next 5 or so minutes to which the player being forced to wait to be shot would get bored, walk off in an annoyed state, which I have seen a few times before.

So how would medium to long range fights work? Well 3 years ago or earlier, I would of mention the S2M system, unfortunately, that is dying and with good reason. Those being: The hit-rate was awful and some people still got a few unfair hits in on purpose, ammo is precious and should not be wasted on missing your target, felt too unrealistic due making it seem like all weapons were just poorly designed or the person firing just looked like a person who has never fired a gun before and just swaying their mouse around at random. So S2M is also not an option.

So not S2RP and not S2M? So what can we use...? S2K? Eh, 50/50 on that too, however, slightly better than the last 2 choices. Why? While yes, it can make characters seem worthless, it is a anti-roleplay system, can makes deaths seem sudden and out of nowhere and is just all around a god awful system, but it does offer some interesting fights, more fast paced gameplay like you mentioned and S2K doesn't really need someone to PM another they are about to shoot, it is just a case of *the moment you fire the first gunshot, everyone can drop what they are doing and run for it*. Of course, there is a skill based issue all of a sudden, making it seem like the FPS players have the upper hand as they can just flick to your head, pop you and you're dead. Sounds shite doesn't it, I know.

You may be sitting there looking at the paragraph and go "But Robert, you're trashing S2K more than making it appeal in anyway", thats because it is also a flawed and not too workable system nor solution either. So what can we do now? Well, do not fret as here at TeslaCloud, there are a few things we will have in-game which will stop the overall... flaws of some of these systems showing.... to some extent, if they work that is.

TeslaCloud Combat Systems:
Firstly, I would like to mention that S2K will not be forced upon you or anyone else, there is a choice between S2K and S2RP which players can freely choose between. While S2K may be a 'default', it will certainly not be forced upon you, just don't try S2RP against NPC's, won't be fun. We want players to ultimately decide what systems they want to use when roleplaying, not decide it for them. However, if 2 parties can't com to agreement on one of them, then a GM will be more than happy to take a look at the situation and circumstances, as well as surrounding environment and give their input into what the system used should be.

Now onto in-game framework type stuff. First of all, I do think we have systems which will affect how your guns work for each character, with their being a form of 'gun' skill. Depending on how high or low this skill is, the harder it may be to shoot, have accurate aim, levels of recoil, etc which will make it so no character can just pick up a gun and suddenly go special operations on everyones ass. Instead, their character might not even know how to use a gun in the first place, massively affecting their ability to use it.

Next, we also have functionality for weapon jamming, something that can happen to anyone and everyone at any given point in time. This makes it so during gunfights, anyone's weapon can simply jam up, making their FPS skills suddenly useless as they can't fire their gun anymore. It can happen to anyone at any time during fights, just hope it doesn't happen to you. (You of course do have the ability to un-jam your weapons)

Other systems include durability, default weapon recoil, the fact that guns won't be easy to find in anyway. I am sure there are a few features I am forgetting to mention, but we fought about them all when the Management team came together to have a long discussion about it and find a way to make it work, even testing how things would seem in-game from a player stand-point accounting for everything. We will get something that works

Alternative:
The alternative would be to take the existing systems and find a way to create a whole new system entirely, taking the best of all the systems and trying to create something greater. Or, find a way to make a feature that will assist these systems in their overall functionality, kind of like what I mentioned above just now for S2K.

Does this whole page mean I am not open to S2RP? No, I am open to S2RP as it does also work as well, even at short range despite what I said, though long and medium ranges still come into question. Though I have seen some good S2RP done at short range before hand, however, mostly turns out to be drama, some bs way of getting gear or some other line of headache inducing mess. That is not to say it does not work though, as it does just like S2K works despite how... awful it seems.

This is all I have to say for now as I got to go, but thank you for reading and hopefully you understand. Feel free to try come up with your own suggestion to possibly help get around this dilemma. For now, I am heading off,

Robert

 

[Atle]

Everything comes at a cost, S2RP introduces rules/regulations and the requirement for GM oversight, which contradicts the role of a GM. It sways the path open for extensive bureaucracy and to me that seems a far worse alternative.

I'm aware of the issues with S2K too, so if we were to get a smooth turn-based-ish system or something else that does not require bureaucracy, then I'd be more than willing to give that a go and replace the current system. However, as it stands, S2K with our bleed/revival/unconscious system is the best option we've got in my view

I have asked the developers to keep this in mind and see if they can think of improvements

 

[Subeh]

I've been on both sides of the fence when it comes to S2RP vs S2K and I can tell you one thing;

Both of them are rat shit.

S2K is S2K, it literally has no roleplay backing whatsoever and completely destroys the concept of a roleplay server. In saying that; it's easy. The issues arise in what comes of the S2K itself; should PK's be a result of S2K? Fuck no, that's fucking daft -- your character should not be destroyed as a result of you being shit as CS:GO. Should you lose anything in S2K engagements? No. Much like TnB, S2K should be purely recreational and unless gear is so commonplace that you can ask someone for an AK and they'd have ten to give you, you should not lose anything from S2K.

S2RP is the alternative and comes with its own plethora of bullshit; it causes arguments, its slow paced and no one wants to RP actually taking a hit. Places like TnB rarely have this issue because S2RP is ingrained in the culture of the place, but so is S2K. S2RP is not bad if you know how to manage and ingrain it. Staff can't be lazy, they need to be overseeing these things and actively policing shit.

The fact of the matter is there's no good side of the bread to butter here, that's why a lot of places -- TnB primarily -- opts to utilise both systems; in large-scale engagements its S2K with gear loss (that's only because TRP has guns coming out its arse and no one cares if they lose a gun), in smaller engagements it's S2RP with things on the platter such as NLR and, depending on the circumstances, PK.

Dying in S2K is quite possibly the largest fuck you you could ever throw at a player and I'd be pretty disappointed for any server to condone it, let alone this one.

 

[Imperator RAD-X]

This has been a topic before.

The turn-based video in the link provided seemed to be a very great and willing method to get all players involved on the same system without hassle. It's easily followed, it's interactive, it's fair and balanced.

Whether it be S2K, S2M, S2RP, P2L or what ever system is out there that is utilised, they are all at the discretion of that enter button. That video just goes to show that when combat is initiated then it's automatically set within that scene. What happens in there is usually unbiased. It doesn't appear to warrant a two hour long argument because someone got shot in the head in the first /me or someone can't "/me neo dodges incoming boooollleeettts".

And I absolutely agree on the S2K part; the whole CS:GO thing does indeed kill the baseline when you initiate it. People go try hard and go pure adrenaline rush because of it and that causes some serious drama at times.

I don't remember my ordinary life citizen character having the skills of an EX-SAS member turned hitman wielding a 9mm pistol and killing a whole CP squad and walks away as if nothing happened. Same with a lone CP taking on five heavily armed rebels in that same circumstance.

While I don't deny that it's possible, it's just outrageous and borderline impossible in an RP circumstance.

 

[dee pixel]

tl;dr: S2RP bad, causes too many arguments and doesn't have enough benefits to warrant its overall or even moderate usage.

it's not bad so much as it is unpredictable. in a controlled environment with sensible roleplayers who understand basic logic and are willing to lose when the situation is not in their favor, s2rp is great. but in big open environments like this where any fool can join up and get his hands on a .45, it's not really the most ideal standard. that's not to say it should be shirked 100% of the time - i think that s2rp should be used whenever possible. but as a standard, s2k is the best simply because it is the quickest and fairest means to duke out conflict with such a varied and inconsistent group of people.

 

[Sectus]

I maintain my position. There is simply too much effect on interactions by people who have their own out of character interests in keeping their characters alive to opt for any fully or majority S2RP system. Everyone will always argue in favor of their character winning the fight even when it doesn't make sense because they don't want to die/lose items.

Unless something like the system in Flanders' post is established in a way that can make combat work in a way that allows the involved parties to roleplay while also determining the outcome FOR them, we should stick to fully S2K.

 

[TheDeNuke]

I maintain my position. There is simply too much effect on interactions by people who have their own out of character interests in keeping their characters alive to opt for any fully or majority S2RP system. Everyone will always argue in favor of their character winning the fight even when it doesn't make sense because they don't want to die/lose items.

So we have the complete opposite and rather then the typical issue of S2RP character protection we have people getting killed because their ping was too high or they did not play enough CS:GO to prepare for the big CP vs Rebel showdown.

To sum this entire thread up:

S2RP = Dramatic and Bureaucratic (in a way that we cannot do with the GM System)
S2K = Utterly Unfair and is practically the Death of Roleplay

Its literally trading one hell for another hell. However, we just can't have S2RP here due to other reasons (GM System) so I'm going to continue to find a alternative (ex. Flanders thingy) and tolerate S2K for the time being. To my complete disgust of course- it only gets a pass because we don't currently have a choice.

 

[Sectus]

Its literally trading one hell for another hell. However, we just can't have S2RP here due to other reasons (GM System) so I'm going to continue to find a alternative (ex. Flanders thingy) and tolerate S2K for the time being. To my complete disgust of course- it only gets a pass because we don't currently have a choice.

It's honestly not as bad as you keep professing. The negatives introduced from S2RP far outweigh the negatives that come from S2K. Sure, it eliminates 'mid-combat' RP in a way, but it doesn't change the fact that the situation happened and it has impact on characters both involved and surrounding. Your character will still be able to be affected emotionally if they survived, they might have injuries and they might have experienced trauma. My position is just that the RP experienced mid-combat isn't significant enough to worry about that much.

Think about it; in real life these shootouts and fights happen in seconds to minutes, and you don't have time to process it mentally. You just FIGHT, and once it's done and the adrenaline rush has ended, you have your come down.

I know we're aiming for an in between. I just don't think S2K is THAT bad.

 

[TheDeNuke]

It's honestly not as bad as you keep professing. The negatives introduced from S2RP far outweigh the negatives that come from S2K. Sure, it eliminates 'mid-combat' RP in a way, but it doesn't change the fact that the situation happened and it has impact on characters both involved and surrounding. Your character will still be able to be affected emotionally if they survived, they might have injuries and they might have experienced trauma. My position is just that the RP experienced mid-combat isn't significant enough to worry about that much.

Think about it; in real life these shootouts and fights happen in seconds to minutes, and you don't have time to process it mentally. You just FIGHT, and once it's done and the adrenaline rush has ended, you have your come down.

I know we're aiming for an in between. I just don't think S2K is THAT bad.

Benefits of S2K

• S2K is smooth and fast paced. Combat is resolved quickly, and with intensity, like an actual firefight.
• S2K requires little planning and set up. It can be started on the fly and usually ends just as fast.
• S2K is quick. Conflicts resolved in around 1 or 2 minutes, if not even within a few seconds.

Its almost like this thread is now just going around in a circle. I understand that you like fast paced combat and I get that, but I'd still prefer an (non-S2RP) alternative at some point due to its net negatives that directly affect me and my ability to actually do anything in combat apart from dying as a Australian player that will likely have 300+ ping.

I hope you don't intent to ever put lucid in combat either or generally anyone with either low FPS skill or bad ping....

 

[Robert]

These types of discussions around the combat system have been going on throughout the life of HL2RP, each one is a failure. S2K has its failures, S2RP has its own and S2M is now dead at long last. Just S2K and S2RP are the only 2 surviving systems each with their ups and downs, hence why we currently allow both of them. But the system I saw from what Flanders posted, which is this link here:

https://streamable.com/c8x03

Feels like something we could also make ourselves or something similar to it. The only solution I see to solving these issues we have around S2K and S2RP is to create an entirely new combat system which makes all fights fair and equal with little to no bs as possible. We do have quite a few things in development which already affect both S2RP and S2K that do help some of their upsides shine a bit more than usual, but generally, it doesn't seem like it is going to matter as the downsides will still be painfully clear.

This conversation isn't going to go anywhere at this rate and will keep going in circles unless a GOOD solution is thought of, not just constant S2K and S2RP bashing heads.

 

[Flanders]

These types of discussions around the combat system have been going on throughout the life of HL2RP, each one is a failure. S2K has its failures, S2RP has its own and S2M is now dead at long last. Just S2K and S2RP are the only 2 surviving systems each with their ups and downs, hence why we currently allow both of them. But the system I saw from what Flanders posted, which is this link here:

https://streamable.com/c8x03

Feels like something we could also make ourselves or something similar to it. The only solution I see to solving these issues we have around S2K and S2RP is to create an entirely new combat system which makes all fights fair and equal with little to no bs as possible. We do have quite a few things in development which already affect both S2RP and S2K that do help some of their upsides shine a bit more than usual, but generally, it doesn't seem like it is going to matter as the downsides will still be painfully clear.

This conversation isn't going to go anywhere at this rate and will keep going in circles unless a GOOD solution is thought of, not just constant S2K and S2RP bashing heads.

bro i already posted this just scroll up