the IDEA of implementing a non-singular legislative body in HL2RP

[Thood74]

Hello, yes! The title will be addressed, don't worry. It's not as immersion breaking as it sounds.

Spoiler: First, what is the idea SPECIFICALLY?

I should elaborate on what I meant. Which is fairly simple:

A group of the political elite selected by the Combine, these individuals are pro-combine. They cannot act publically in an anti-combine manner or risk detainment by OTA or CPs.

This group suggests various things. Heres an example based on an already existing faction:

"Xen Infestation is getting pretty bad, we should make legislation around it to try and counteract this."

As such, a bill is formed around the discussion of the forming of an anti-infestation group aswell as the implementation of further safeguards against the infestation in the future.

The bill is then discussed. Is something faulty, is the idea nonfunctional due to one reason or the other? Et cetera.

A verdict is then reached. Either rejecting or accepting the bill as interested individuals who are part of this elite vote or abstain.

Thats about it.

Spoiler: Addressing a few arguments.

Secondly, I should address three arguments that may be made in response to the basic idea.

First of these: "The CA can already do these things!"

Yes, they can. But this is a single individual with no sort of advisors (ACTUAL advisors, not the other kind) or oversight body so long as they don't implement anti-combine policies. This singular individual is also taking away a roleplay aspect that could be granted to a wider group of roleplayers just as easily.

second: "This goes against the theme of HL2!"

Not particularly. I mean, if you read the title exclusively yeah it bloody well would. But theres a particular thing to remember:

1. The individuals here are all pro combine loyalists. Who will be subject to oversight by the CA and IA for anti-combine behaviours. But are otherwise free to act however they see fit as long as it doesn't contradict Overwatch or the interests of the Combine.

2. Even real life authoritarian groups have used (and actively use) these sorts of congregations to give the idea that the citizenry are not oppressed. The idea that any individual could become of a high status actively disencourages rebellion and also helps with the running of the government by select individuals. Even in dictatorships, no man rules alone.

Third and finally: "But all their power is irrelevant! The CA can veto their bills!"

Probably not. The CA is monitored by RED and the sector administration. As long as the group is pro union and still competitent to some extent, IA would not permit the CA to act in such a way without getting an investigation from the higher authorities.

Finally, these systems have been successful in the past and even in the present. Regardless of what your opinions of the various servers that have partaken in this organizational decision are.

Now, discuss! Good, or bad?
Lord help me.

 

[Thood74]

now that i think of it, posting a discussion on the forums is less likely to mean anything because we have a discord, making a forum discussion less useful

 

[cunt]

You're right about CAB being able to do this.

You're wrong about CAB being one singular person.

 

[Thood74]

You're right about CAB being able to do this.

You're wrong about CAB being one singular person.

I was referring to the City Administrator. Who has some fairly unique duties in comparison to the rest of CAB at times. I still curse this naming convention.

 

[cunt]

I was referring to the City Administrator. Who has some fairly unique duties in comparison to the rest of CAB at times. I still curse this naming convention.

Yeah but what you're describing is something that CAB as a whole could do.

 

[Thood74]

Yeah but what you're describing is something that CAB as a whole could do.

Fair, I guess. Then again, we don't know how the CAB would interact in this sort of setting with a congress or other group without it actually occuring. As for law making within the current CA system, I'm not sure what level of intraction the directors have with the CA and any laws they may decide to make.

Either way, the idea would still open up certain processes of the CAB to a wider group of players while also encouraging the use of the law/regulation implementing abilities where it is suitable.

 

[RedHotGinger]

Yes, they can. But this is a single individual with no sort of advisors (ACTUAL advisors, not the other kind) or oversight body so long as they don't implement anti-combine policies. This singular individual is also taking away a roleplay aspect that could be granted to a wider group of roleplayers just as easily.

First off, yes CAB can easily do this themselves with absolutely no impacts on the server itself. One of the big problems you run into with a concept like this is the actual means of which decisions are reached and made. Frankly, the process will be so streamlined and obvious, very little in the way of creative freedom will be attainable. In most governments you have a multitude of things to worry about. In this, we have a semi-reactive economy that may or may not impact it at all. Other things will have to be artificially simulated, which may or may not work. I suspect that whatever problems come to be, the solutions will be so one track, that the entire process devolves into an overly complex room of people saying 'yay.'

In other words, it will be a group of people whos main purpose, is to fix what is not broken IC.

"This goes against the theme of HL2!"

It does. It absolutely does. Whether that is a good or bad thing is up to personal interpretation. But the idea of the combine instilling some form of faux 'democracy' into the rudimentary governments of Earth is dubious at best. The combine are raw pragmatists. Everything from the way their structures look, to the way they assimilate beings into their army screams of the raw efficiency the Empire likely values. For them to suddenly insert a democratic body at the very tail end of a completely totalitarian system is strange and needless.

1. The individuals here are all pro combine loyalists. Who will be subject to oversight by the CA and IA for anti-combine behaviours. But are otherwise free to act however they see fit as long as it doesn't contradict Overwatch or the interests of the Combine.

Yet another problem that is brought up here is the contradictions. The combine value social stability in Earths government more than anything. The entire point and structure of the current government is to simply maintain stability through raw intimidation and power. Which, make no mistake, is how the combine almost exclusively operates. They have no need for dagger tactics when they are perfectly comfortable dropping a canister atop of your head. The combine employ propaganda, but it is all very rudimentary. What they rely on most is the raw authority they exude through the Synths, OTA and conformist forces that they have in store. Or, should it be mentioned, the world ending forces beyond the veil. They don't build chambers for civilians to squabble inside of, under the impression they are free. They build citadels that break the sky, to remind them that they are not. They hand out watered flavored rations for a reason in retail and that reason is because at the end of the day, you do not need to be happy, to conform. While we in no way should hold ourselves entirely under retail, changes like this seriously water down the combine into 'generic' territory. Obviously HL2RP doesn't necessarily house them as so oppressive, which is fine, needed even, but it needs to remain anchored to the original concept as much as possible.

Even real life authoritarian groups have used (and actively use) these sorts of congregations to give the idea that the citizenry are not oppressed. The idea that any individual could become of a high status actively disencourages rebellion and also helps with the running of the government by select individuals. Even in dictatorships, no man rules alone.

This is true. Many IRL powers do this. However, there are two major problems with this thought.
Firstly, Loyalty is its own reward. The loyalist collaborator party already exists, and heavily rewards anyone who partakes in unity with the Combine empire. Without this 'congress' there is already ample, and far more grounded reason, to seek better terms in life. Unlike this idea, loyalists are a very genuine concept in line with retail. It makes complete sense and lines up well with what we see as a possibility of the world.

"I don't know about you, but I'm ready to Join Civil Protection just to get a better meal."

Secondly, The CAB does not rule alone. The chain runs rather far down, with each administrator being an extension of Breen's (and as a result the advisories reach) They are all puppets apart of the same string and the system flows very well as a result. Adding an additional thread, that holds no actual authority, aside from that which is granted through tolerance rather than acceptance, is a pointless exercise from a world point of view.

Third and finally: "But all their power is irrelevant! The CA can veto their bills!"

Probably not. The CA is monitored by RED and the sector administration. As long as the group is pro union and still competitent to some extent, IA would not permit the CA to act in such a way without getting an investigation from the higher authorities.

Reality is, this is completely true. Monitored or not, the only choices this group can make are the ones directly supported by CAB. What this means is they are basically useless. The only bills they can pass are the ones that have already been declared acceptable by higher powers. This congress is nothing more than a nugatory hand clasped around a hollow stamp.

The congress holds so little influence, that even if they were to do something 'pro-union' and were opposed by the CAB, it seems unlikely it would matter, barring extreme cases.
Ex.
Congress: "There is a xenian infection overtaking the streets. We need to put out a call for CRU operatives."
CAB: "No. It's better for us to sit here and wait the incident out."

I just don't see situations like this occurring. Obviously, quite an extreme example. I just never see a point where the entirely 'loyalist' congress and CAB would disagree on anything notable since they are basically one in the same and benefit from the same things.


As for some unmentioned issues:
It messes with current lore at least a little bit, though not much. IT's just another thing that would need nudged to accommodate this idea. For example, not all cities are the same. Some are in dire standings, would such a congress even exist in a place where unrest is high and trust is at its lowest point?

The logic of hearts and minds is also flawed. Frankly, this is something completely unattainable to the majority population (non loyalist civilians) who, will still be bereted and beaten by Civil Protection regularly. Apartments will still be raided, rations will still be of poor quality. Nothing in their life changes. Why would they care that a bunch of high loyalists get to 'make calls.' Especially when any calls made will benefit the higher class of society, not the lower. Reality is, the combine rely so heavily on fear and intimidation to maintain order, that very little room for gracious convincing remains. You'd be hard pressed to convince a guy on the wrong end of a stun baton that he should cheer up because some loyalists got into the government oppressing him.

Semi-Counter proposal thing:
Not going to go into heavy detail on this, since this is long enough as it is. However, if we wanted to include something like this it would be far better to commit to a far more sober idea of an assembled committee, rather than some official congress. This committee would not be apart of the CAB in any regard, but would be a selected group of people with the ability to commune with members of the administration. Bring up concerns and other issues from not only the loyalists population, but also the general civilians.
This would be local to City 24 alone, and would be a product one of the most loyalist cities on Earth. Thus, it maintains the tone and nature of the combine beyond its borders, while also providing a way to bridge the gap between Administration and Civilians in the server. Which, seemingly to me, is the main purpose of this entire concept. Obviously it would suffer from the same issues, but would not suffer from the delusion that those issues are absent.

Not even saying this should be done, but I think something along those lines is preferable to the sweeping altercations of a Global loyalist 'congress' if we must have one.

Just my thoughts. I could be completely wrong, right or somewhere in between. But, this idea seems very flawed when compared to its benefits, to me.

 

[Equinox]

The point of the administration is not to be a competitor. They aren't meant to be a faction that works on its own to meet its own goals. Just like how Civil Protection on an OOC level aren't a faction whose goal is to literally squash all forms of divergance from the Combine, but instead to be the tasteful antagonist who provides or redirects certain RP while not eliminating it.

Giving them this concept where they can "vote in bills" goes against what they are supposed to be. They're meant to help Citizen RP on an OOC level. They're tools, essentially, which have been implemented into an RP setting. Look at each role and what they are tasked with handling:

- Productions is tasked with overseeing and managing the trials and tribulations of business owners, as well as providing RP for citizens should it be needed in the form of work cycles.
- IA is tasked with being an antagonist towards MAINLY the loyalist party, and is meant to provide a sense of "You are being watched."
- Civil Rep is meant to be an end goal for loyalist, essentially allowing the loyalist party to change the "motive" of the administration depending on who they """elect""".
- The Bureau is meant to give the world depth, as well as a sort of "Elitist" group among loyalists in the form of their bureau.

At no point is the need for "bills" to be passed here. Why? Because if you give this kind of power to what is essentially 6 or so players, you are simply widening the chance that they are going to fuck up, and ruin citizen RP for everyone by making some big change that fucks over RP. The people placed in these individual positions, I hope, are trusted to run their parts well, and essentially provide what is mentioned above.

Hell, you've brought up the idea of removing the CA (or at least the Vice CA, from what I understand) from being an active character, and I would even agree. They hold no purpose beyond being a talking figure head because, as designed, the CAB is meant to be a method through which trusted players can guide different parts of Citizen roleplay, not for them all to get together and "propose bills" to radically alter everything for IC reasons.

 

[Pyureh]

As for law making within the current CA system, I'm not sure what level of intraction the directors have with the CA and any laws they may decide to make.

This is a solid point. Each director in a sense knows what they are overseeing, but we don't necessarily have anything written down that says "Department X meets this day, discusses XYZ law, and makes changes."

I have a general guide that is still in the works on how the day-to-day operations would work for my hospital and department in my absence, but I am sometimes writing, having to guess "would this fit in lore?" "would my character actually have the real powers to do this?"

I still want to hear more before making any +/- supports, but so far, I am unsure of the actual logistics of this getting done.

Regardless, props to preparing your own defenses.

 

[David Draun]

I Kind of skimmed through this whole essay of arguing and torment, And I think I know what I should say...
This idea is pretty much a smarter way of "Taking care of the CA's Job". If I'm correct, This is like many different CA's in a meeting room discussing stuff, Right? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Either way, I like this idea. It would both benefit the Roleplaying experience, And the players surrounding it.
So, I don't mean to jump the gun on this one but...
+Future Support!
I'm not gonna give it too much support right now, But I think it would do well in a server like this!

 

[Thood74]

-snip, accidental post, apologies for ping-

 

[Bling]

+1

 

[Merlinsclaw]

ICly, CAB should serve as both figureheads of the occupation and heads of the Union bureaucracy.

OOCly, CAB should also serve as tasteful antagonists.

I make the argument that an “Congress” can also serve to encourage activity within the Board and expand its role. ICly, I think it’s reasonable to have to help manage the massive bureaucracy.

It’s easy to brush off a Congress with the reference of “the dystopia, it doesn’t make sense” but the existence of an outlet, a congress, even if it holds zero real power is great for the Combine. It could legitimately help them run the Union and raise issues, while also legitimizing the Union and keeping an eye on the “politically active.”

I’m in favor of a Congress, but I think it should be brought up and brought in naturally through I.C means while ensuring that CAB stays as antagonists while also encouraging activity, whether the Congress be made up of citizens or actual CAB members is another debate.