Willard Political Rework

[Merlinsclaw]

ok on second read my reply sounded rude as I misunderstood your original intent, my bad. love you.

While I now know it wasn't your intent, it gets annoying is all, when a book or an essay or any sort of media becomes the argument-saving wildcard and it's apparent people have not read it or understood it. It isn't the first time I debate the CCA in the forums and it isn't the first time I get the '1984' card pulled over some stuff that clearly is even opposing of what 1984 is meant to represent. The fact it's not '1984' doesn't mean it's bad, again; but let's stop calling it things that aren't. And shit, if it was just a misunderstanding of what 1984 is, then, just change it to make it more akin.



Right on most accounts. I know your pain, I've DMd in this setting and many others. Player interest is, at the end of the day the currency the server should work with. But, this is where our viewpoints essentially differ. And it's not a bad thing.

"Wildly changing things" is just putting duct tape on the broken sewage pipe. It's like artificially keeping something alive with something external and detached. Person braindead. There isn't any real life behind it. Just 'appearances'. And it's ironic. Since the server is advertised as HL2 RPG, meaning it has to hold a degree of semblance with what the game transmits and represents. And the 'wild changes' often stray from that. Goes to show how negative a mentality that is.

You cannot control the players. If they get bored, they get bored. If pop dies, pop dies. Just let it breathe for a while, end if need be. This is inevitable. Close, open. But, I have to say, this happens faster than expected not only because of the nature of the gamemode, but also the lack of proper attention by the CT and the administration team; I've said this before.

The main problems that you should 'tackle' to make a substantial contribution, in my opinion, if you want the gameplay loop to be somewhat restored, are:

1) Tackle down on passive, exploity or evasive OOC attitudes through rulesets or faction changes. I'm not saying punish people for standing still doing nothing, but it's true that RN the 'gameplay loop' makes it extremely hard for the three main factions (Civ, CP, Rebel) to interact as they're in a gigantic bubble of safety each if they only stick to the 'most OOCly compensating strategies', which are:
- For the CP, man the workdesk and afk rankup, and minimize injury when it does happen (we asked for a more mean dispatch that actually forces you to do stuff, but people whined. then proceed to do nothing.)
- For the civs, have no endgame beyond standing still waiting for the ration timers and or grind (store management is super unattended, CWU is not handled too well, loyalist tiers are so bad they shouldn't even be a thing, atm.)
- For the resis, scripthoarding and staying in an otherwise OOCly unreachable environment (the base rules are, honestly, pathetic. there is no chance in hell anyone is getting caught, ever, and it shows.)
Like seriously. There -are- ways to fix this. But people are lazy and or too afraid to correct what's already in place. Why don't the CT play around this either? More on that on 4). And why do admins allow this?

2) The map is simultaneously one of the best and worst I've seen for HL2RP. Best in terms of detail and care, worst in terms of player hotzones and gameplay-oriented areas. Half of it is just hallways pulling people apart to very different ends of everything, despite the attempts of verticalisation. If something doesn't work. Update or change it. If you say "no changes"; deal with the consequences.

3) R e m o v e i n a c t i v e p e o p l e f r o m c h a r g e s o f r e s p o n s i b i l i t y. (but of course, can't do that! for some reason!)

4) The 'events' are so disconnected from one another and at times so repetitive and hollow (i've gone 3 days in a row with the same 'event' playing the exact same way, with it having no 'backstory' or reason to happen whatsoever) that it makes you wonder if there's any real kind of management behind it. I've only really seen ZeroPants and Sif do stuff actively (most of it very good, some of it eh, but they are clearly doing a lot). I've also heard the expedition backlog is extremely clogged, factions and groups who've waited months for their events (allegedly), and in my opinion *some* events feel so forced and with so little care about it... I've seen events where no matter how many /mes someone said, the GM refused to give /its, or any sort of orientation and response to player action (which is what a GM should do).

5) There is still no storyline. You said one was coming, for only one half of the players, and it's still not here. The ones that were started for the rest, even if minor continuous timekillers, were shut off. There is lore but no drive. ATM this server is more akin to a wiki page than a roleplaying game. Lore is good. But without real applicaiton and opportunity to change it, it's just tumblr fanfiction. Allow the people to make the story, don't make it for them.

6) There is so. Much. Padding. That takes you away from actually roleplaying. Because roleplaying takes effort and people don't want that. They wanna progress individually only. You rely on grinding, near numerical mechanics (social credit, STC, crafting, creds and chips) as core for every main faction then complain people don't RP enough to keep the cycle alive. I've gone to workshifts where I was given 3 points for writing a bible and a half of cool roleplay /mes, and I've seen people get 5 points because they kept their /mes short and were able to mingework twice as much tasks as me. Encourage roleplay. Not rewards.

There's many more. But all of this takes *a lot of effort to fix* though, and in the end it might not even be enough. It's definitely possible however, and the problems ARE known, it's just people are reluctant to face them. These kind of lame practices have been encouraged for long enough that the playerbase that's brewed kinda only cares for it over the actual roleplay most of the time. Right now the problem is the players have the wrong mindset, correct, but who allowed that mindset to flourish?

How many threads exist exactly about this and the issues above...

idk. I like you, Merlin, ok? I'm just angry that instead of tackling core issues the answer is always some facelift. Some WILD WILD DIFFERENT THING! that isn't that different if you actually stop and read it. it's just unfaithful instead. A few name changes here, a few more ranks there. Like when u got mad as a kid, and ur parents bought u candies so u would stfu, instead of educating you on why you shouldn't get mad, and the situation perpetrating.

The issues are gonna remain until they're tackled. You can do as many gymnastics as you want, but those are the problems.

I agree with you on most points here. Events disconnect, the map, inactivity, gameplay loop, the 'numerical padding', repetitive events, and the like.

Though, I'll break down two main points.

Storyline
What kind of storyline can we pursue? We have things like London, Moscow, whatever. But these have ZERO influence on the day to day of the server. We could pursue minor storylines, like a food crisis or something, but those ultimately are mostly boring and have no impact on the day-to-day of the server. There have been (some) storylines proposed but they ultimately end up like this:
- Epic secret admin faction figures out X or Y thing.
- Rebels need to go on expeditions for X or Y thing.
- 0 Impact on anyone other than said two factions and change 0 things about the day-to-day of the server.

And any storyline ultimately can't impact C24 in a major way. So seriously, what do we do? This is a problem that I personally can't answer. Can you think of anything?

Gameplay
I think you have the wrong idea. My take is no matter how hard you try to rectify the problems detailed in your section one (scripthoarding, afking, ration timers, grinding), you ultimately aren't going to change anything because that is how City RP operates. No matter how many times you balance rebel gear, change ration timers, change how stores operate, etc. You aren't going to fix these problems. I'm also somewhat guilty of this (to a degree) with things like the CP suggestion because it really is just sort of a 'face lift'

You ultimately solve these problems by changing the 'atmosphere' and giving players something better to do other than sit at the workdesk or AFK for their ration. I17 somewhat succeeded at this. That's how you change the gameplay. If a CP player has the option between: Heading down to the C.Z, taking off their mask, smoking a cigarette with their criminal partner, and then going to a rave in an hour OR manning the workdesk, they are going to take the former. Same with citizens or anything else. We just need to be able to provide a more interesting atmosphere and setting, more interesting things to do, etc. If you do that, you have better roleplay, you have more fun.

(I ultimately think politics is one of those fun things that breaks the day-to-day grind but it is in no manner the complete solution)

 

[Vulpes Callida]

Post with which I agree

At times I'm far too stuck-up with the 'facelift' stuff; you're right. I'm just scared because every 'change' I see ends up falling flat because the ones in charge of it suddenly lose interest in putting in the effort required to make it memorable.

Also to say, I think many of our players, be it because they're new like Rabid says or because they're selfish to relinquish "OOC status" aren't really ready for a lot of this stuff. Once I was asked if I'd rather have a server with 60 people who are all minges or one with 5 who are really good, and they were surprised I said the latter. In the end, it matters not, does it? Because once the minging is done and people reap all the fun away and drive things into a status quo where nothing changes or matters (because 'muh character, etc.), the population drops drastically,

And Willard is proof:

Graph of activity of the last 30 days, with warmer colours meaning higher (average) population per hour. Each horizontal line is a different day. Blue horizontal at the top is the downtime WN experienced for a few days.

Notice how the dwindling of activity is very marked as these things are let happen?

But you agree, so you already know this. It's for others to see.

This is not so much a direct consequence of 'school starting', as it also includes August, but of bad roleplay. I personally know a few people who aren't joining because their roleplay experience is *bad*.

And I've said a few people, but 'plenty' or 'a lot' would come closer to the fact.


Honestly, I know this is easier said than done, but, if Atle (as I think you are implying) is the one reluctant to change things or to allow C24's destiny to be defined in fear of the 'setting' he built being tainted, or people who hold responsibility not exerting it, then it's his CMs who need to tell him of the consequences of this to the degree that is possible. In fact, he should also let us know why things are this way and what are the plans.

There is no shame in saying this, nor is there in, y'know, holding the position he holds. It's not a callout. It's a discussion for this reason. In the end, if it's what he wants, it's what we're getting, but it's gonna be useless to fight for change if we don't talk with the people who can change things or provide better explanations for things being the way they are. I'm here to discuss and be corrected, I don't wanna impose shit or be the 'carrier of truth'; seems like a lot of people are afraid of y'know, talking with people in fear they might seem like they're questioning them.

So, @Atle ?

Thoughts on the matter? Is there something that can be done?

 

[Rabid]

seems like a lot of people are afraid of y'know, talking with people in fear they might seem like they're questioning them.

It was admitted by a former CM in private to a friend that it was (and probably still is) common for people who're too loud or critical to be regarded as shit-stirrers who's opinions are either ignored outright or they're acknowledged then privately tossed in the bin. This happened to @Merlinsclaw before his ban. I myself was recently put on "discouraged" on the forums (a Xenforo setting where someone's account is effectively made super slow; pages redirect or don't load, etc, in an attempt to get them to leave) for a month for speaking up on @Appetite Ruining Kebab's last thread about how I didn't think forced tortureRP was a good thing.

So yeah, unfortunately a lot of the people who formerly were all for changes to this sort of stuff don't really discuss the downsides too much anymore. Or just stopped playing.

Because once the minging is done and people reap all the fun away and drive things into a status quo where nothing changes or matters (because 'muh character, etc.), the population drops drastically.

To a degree you do need to give people a shiny bauble to work towards - scripts are great for that and there's no shame in it.

But if you don't back that up with interesting and engaging roleplay and don't support the people willing to do that for you then they're going to leave and things are going to slide downhill. I've watched a lot of dedicated players leave because they just didn't feel like their time was worth spending here anymore.

Dev work alone won't keep players - letting people explore new and interesting roleplay does. Nobody wins by downplaying the success of PolitcalRP last time it was on Willard, all it does is push the server closer to how it was before the (very panicked) series of events had to get made a few months ago when people where seriously asking why WN felt like it was dying.

 

[RedHotGinger]

I'm just angry that instead of tackling core issues the answer is always some facelift. Some WILD WILD DIFFERENT THING! that isn't that different if you actually stop and read it. it's just unfaithful instead.

Very based and honestly the number 1 issue Willard has with its writing and concepts. All things in Willard must be different before being good, with the latter being entirely optional on more than one occasion.

Having proposed some ideas and seen a few others proposed since, here is my take on how people have viewed them:

1. The story isn't a complete overhaul of everything and is thus considered too standard or affecting too few factions to be worth doing.
2. The story is something wildly worn out like xen infestations.
3. The story uses assets that may have been on the backburner for some time and thus most people just consider it easier to pretend they don't exist entirely as a result.

Aside from this, there is just not enough motivation or coordination in the CT to enable a large, cohesive narrative to unfold. The CT is more of a rank than a team. People will only help eachother with ideas they consider personally interesting and many even go so far as to try and smuggle ideas and concepts under the table to ensure it receives as little critique and editing as possible. Even if the CT could actually unite under a more universal concept, there is still the fact that people would claim whatever idea is presented is not 'bold' enough or whatever. Or how little sense it makes. Or how it favors one faction over the other etc, etc.

The only "story" Willard has to its own name is currently a nearly 1:1 ripoff of XCOM 2.
In my eyes, even if a story is of relative minor impact, something is better than nothing. At least then the carrot is on the stick and something can be pursued by players, no matter how small. So long as its good and sensible at its core.

---

Which circles back to the politics, where while It could be good, it just (probably) wont be.
I don't think the Willard player base will be able to make it good. People can take shit insanely personally on this server and put winning ahead of story, which is exactly how it went before. The same OOC cults will pop up that will be filled with the same OOC self-inserts we had last time. Now, to be fair, I was a CM at the time of the last political round, so its possible the average player didn't notice how insanely OOC driven the entire political affair was and maybe that lessens the issue with it. All the same...I just don't see it working out. I mean get those X's ready cause if I am being blunt, the last political plotline wasn't ruined by a faulty system or imbalanced gameplay. It was largely slaughtered by players and players alone.

This one does have more structure, and maybe that will mitigate some of those previous issues. But, as said in my last post, some of its structure seems flawed from the get-go.

Not as organized or put together as others, but that's my take all the same.

 

[Rabid]

the last political plotline wasn't ruined by a faulty system or imbalanced gameplay. It was largely slaughtered by players and players alone.

Even if this is mostly true its also obvious that certain staff members had an agenda and pushed to see it through - ultimately they got their wish in the end and the server did suffer for it because they had nothing to replace the player-led efforts and what was attempted never got off the ground or was abandoned for one reason or another.

There's a weird disconnect on WN at the end of the day, as I've said above, where the go-to just seems to be to suggest more automated systems and hope it makes roleplay even with the track record of it doing the reverse.

"Y'know what'll fix shop roleplay? Turning them into automated mini workshifts that people will want to grind while locking the best shops behind a huge SC wall and making sure everything is even more monitored!"

Like I don't mean to sound snarky or snide but why do those sorts of massively complex suggestions that need far more balancing and thinking get way more traction and less pushback than just, y'know, loosening up and letting more roleplay flow, even if its a little "out there?" - I mean you already put up with a setting that includes Radio Bob and Carnival rides in the plaza, y'know?

 

[Deleted member 4096]

I know that my opinion has the chance to be portrayed as a shitpost due to it being shorter than others who've given their own, I just hope that it wouldn't.

Conflict is the driving narrative within any setting. For roleplay, it involves and requires other people. Usually. And I think that conflict as it stands within Willard's setting, player-to-player, is largely absent. To be frank: I've never seen any actual resistance operation. I've never seen any real Civil Protection actively antagonizing others. Nothing; nothing at all from what I've seen.

I don't mean to come across as detrimental, but in the few weeks I've participated here it felt less of an actual presence of HL2:RP and more of a Facist simulator with extradimensional characteristics. Everything and everyone is in their own corner, shying away of actually creating conflicts that is endemic to the HL2:RP universe, as the norm and not the exception which is in C24.

And, well: Roleplay is fun. But settings need conflict. If the server's going to stall or forego a narrative altogether and rely on its simulation within the city, it still needs conflict.

Right now I think there's parameters that encourage people to withhold any brazen attempts that could cause scenes & incidents to happen. And as much as a risk it is; making me sound like a broken record player: I feel Permanent Kills are too restrictive as most conflicts which ends the other(s) dead usually resolves in a permanent loss for that/those character(s).

I support any initiative that will cause the player base to interact with itself and create narratives, otherwise I feel Willard will continue to stagnate in its player-driven autonomy as anything not sanctioned and/or concocted by the administrative team is either withheld or just simply nil.

 

[Merlinsclaw]

I know that my opinion has the chance to be portrayed as a shitpost due to it being shorter than others who've given their own, I just hope that it wouldn't.

Conflict is the driving narrative within any setting. For roleplay, it involves and requires other people. Usually. And I think that conflict as it stands within Willard's setting, player-to-player, is largely absent. To be frank: I've never seen any actual resistance operation. I've never seen any real Civil Protection actively antagonizing others. Nothing; nothing at all from what I've seen.

I don't mean to come across as detrimental, but in the few weeks I've participated here it felt less of an actual presence of HL2:RP and more of a Facist simulator with extradimensional characteristics. Everything and everyone is in their own corner, shying away of actually creating conflicts that is endemic to the HL2:RP universe, as the norm and not the exception which is in C24.

And, well: Roleplay is fun. But settings need conflict. If the server's going to stall or forego a narrative altogether and rely on its simulation within the city, it still needs conflict.

Right now I think there's parameters that encourage people to withhold any brazen attempts that could cause scenes & incidents to happen. And as much as a risk it is; making me sound like a broken record player: I feel Permanent Kills are too restrictive as most conflicts which ends the other(s) dead usually resolves in a permanent loss for that/those character(s).

I support any initiative that will cause the player base to interact with itself and create narratives, otherwise I feel Willard will continue to stagnate in its player-driven autonomy as anything not sanctioned and/or concocted by the administrative team is either withheld or just simply nil.

I agree except for the PKs part. PKs are necessary, it’s just that people need to see more conflict and allow it to happen more often. Whenever some conflict comes up rn the natural instinct is to instantly shut it down

 

[Deleted member 4096]

I agree except for the PKs part. PKs are necessary, it’s just that people need to see more conflict and allow it to happen more often. Whenever some conflict comes up rn the natural instinct is to instantly shut it down

I am not asking for abolition for PKs, personally; I agree entirely. I just feel that overall PKs are more plausible for 'End of a Thread' stories, where there's proper escalation or a set of continuous mistakes. In a way: I don't think Civil Protection should be PK'ed for responding to a resistance operation, similarly that I also don't believe that for a minor resistance operation should have everyone be 'PKed' if it goes south.

It's also in the dynamic where trust cannot be fostered because it's in a black-and-white mentality. If you trust and it is not reciprocated in these scenarios: Your character's usually PK'ed. I think the playerbase should also learn to play to lose, or just allow characters to get away/survive with some stuff, but that suggestion and hope, though noble, is also more superfluous with its ambiguity and disregards too many nuances happening within a situation, both IC and OOC.

 

[Rabid]

Honestly I'll sum it up like this.

Right now you have a group of dedicated people who are willing to put the effort in to run things that provide roleplay - but not as many as you had six months to a year ago. Whether or not you choose to give them the freedom to do the things that will make roleplay is your decision.

But you ultimately have a CT team that is unable to make a cohesive story (in Red Hot's words) and a setting that is incredibly resistant to actual change in a manner that matters. You cannot pilot this ship yourselves due to the sheer work involved and you cannot replace the actions of dedicated players.

I agree except for the PKs part. PKs are necessary, it’s just that people need to see more conflict and allow it to happen more often. Whenever some conflict comes up rn the natural instinct is to instantly shut it down

I'll make a slight edit to your post; PK's are a neccesity but people need avenues of conflict that won't lead to PK's much by design so interest can spark without everyone tryharding to keep their characters alive.

 

[EBoost]

This seems too restrictive on what we can do. Just allow us to make regular political parties I don't know why we can't.

 

[Conair]

too bureaucratic and bloated, you can do the same stuff with less ranks: chairman, leaders trusted to run shit, standard members. That's it, the leaders are given a general goal and they utilise members to do stuff. The chairman makes sure everything stays on track and is the party "Face."

To build on this, make loyalism political not score or class based. the proposal has a solid foundation but is very bureaucratic and too tied with an arbitrary system of grind. to reiterate what i said elsewhere

They should be operating not like a standard party but as an affiliate party.

Courting affiliate businesses, buttering up high-ranking workers, wooing membership for people using promises and preying on their fears. Run soup kitchens, care packages for cops, raise funds for injured workers etc and muscle out all competing charities so we are the hegemon - presented as the only solution to societies woes.

Joining is easy, leaving is hard, obligations are demanded of you which you must fulfil and discipline can/will be severe. Working on the grassroots/ground-level you create a name for yourself and the organisation without the need for pomp and posture, an organic movement can form with only a slight boost at the beginning (some credits for instance.)

Even the chairman should be out on the streets organising, rolling up their sleeves, the office is for special occasions not for constant use - to set a scene or broker a deal with someone important.
There can be internal dissent but outside you're a solid unitary force, dictated by either group consensus or the chairman's vision.

Differing political groups are naturally not supported or acknowledged officially but could exist, even as a pawn for other purposes or as scapegoats. There is huge possibility for a great influx of RP, whether an official party is set-up or not. On an OOC level you're simply opening up more gates to facilitate roleplay on the server.


I haven't read anything beyond the first post btw, i'll probably read it tomorrow <3 xoxoxoxo

 

[John Rico]

This seems too restrictive on what we can do. Just allow us to make regular political parties I don't know why we can't.

Even more simple than that, political factions could totally operate under the current one-party system without any change at all.
I don't even know why there is a fixation in having them be parties within the one true combine party which makes for a retarded set up for anyone that views it from an outside perspective.
Just come up with your own creative interpretation of Combine ideology, form a voting bloc with likeminded legislators, start advertising your group in the streets, get supporters, and you're done, what else do you even need?

 

[Appetite Ruining Kebab]

the entire point of politics is the struggle to define how a society should operate

just because its Combine society doesnt mean there will be no politics; it just means the politics themselves will take on a Combine spin

 

[KG!]

This seems too restrictive on what we can do. Just allow us to make regular political parties I don't know why we can't.

no one wants to see "communist workers party" #328459723859723 that's why

 

[Deleted member]

This seems too restrictive on what we can do. Just allow us to make regular political parties I don't know why we can't.

In actuality, it's very much not. The reforms simply aim to implement a solid hierarchy to coincide with the parties, not to mention a much-needed rework to the Assembly. When responsibilities are clearly defined and a semblance of organization is established, it heavily reduces the likelihood of certain bad actors getting into high-ranking positions without OOC staff intervention. Political Parties no longer being full independent organizations adds an element of accountability, in that they now somewhat need to abide by the norms.

Having the Executive Committee also ensures all aspiring parties are properly vetted and actually make sense (sorry no sodabob party, unfortunately)

Saying this for the 50th time. Political parties, now simply renamed as 'Binders' will still have full autonomy over themselves with regards to their structure, ideologies, and so forth. Councillors have full authority to lobby and engage in community outreach. Meaning, that when it comes to what parties used to do there are really no restrictions. If we were to hypothetically go back to the old system, politics would end up exactly as it did initially; mishandled. The general and prevalent consensus for politics in Willard has always been mixed. Objectively however its impact on CityRP cannot be gainsaid, and now in unison with the Economy Update will provide some stellar opportunity for player agency.

As co-author of the doc, I'd like to also thank you all for your feedback and input. We've taken it all into account and are currently amending and adding to the document accordingly to meet community expectations.

 

[Merlinsclaw]

no one wants to see "communist workers party" #328459723859723 that's why

Don't think anyone's done that tbf.

In actuality, it's very much not. The reforms simply aim to implement a solid hierarchy to coincide with the parties, not to mention a much-needed rework to the Assembly. When responsibilities are clearly defined and a semblance of organization is established, it heavily reduces the likelihood of certain bad actors getting into high-ranking positions without OOC staff intervention. Political Parties no longer being full independent organizations adds an element of accountability, in that they now somewhat need to abide by the norms.

Having the Executive Committee also ensures all aspiring parties are properly vetted and actually make sense (sorry no sodabob party, unfortunately)

Saying this for the 50th time. Political parties, now simply renamed as 'Binders' will still have full autonomy over themselves with regards to their structure, ideologies, and so forth. Councillors have full authority to lobby and engage in community outreach. Meaning, that when it comes to what parties used to do there are really no restrictions. If we were to hypothetically go back to the old system, politics would end up exactly as it did initially; mishandled. The general and prevalent consensus for politics in Willard has always been mixed. Objectively however its impact on CityRP cannot be gainsaid, and now in unison with the Economy Update will provide some stellar opportunity for player agency.

As co-author of the doc, I'd like to also thank you all for your feedback and input. We've taken it all into account and are currently amending and adding to the document accordingly to meet community expectations.

I just generally feel like it may be restrictive and what others have said is fair. The shit I put up with was insane and I'd imagine it could happen to an even more extreme degree now.

 

[ShadoWiz4rd]

I've seen servers with OTA ODST pods;

 

[Dog]

Cock

 

[RedHotGinger]

Cock

 

[Vulpes Callida]

no one wants to see "communist workers party" #328459723859723 that's why

there is only 1 communist party and its tomorrow night, at my house. bring jagermeister (of the people, for the people)