Business gate-keeping and thus' bartering/cooking gatekeeping.

[Madcombat]

Here I fucking go again, another long thread about why somthing is bad how it is bad why it is bad how is it bad mechanically and why it has a knock on effect ect ect ect fuck kill me okay fuck fuck fuck clap clap clap tyrone niggums okay im fucking ready lets go.




Businesses!


We currently have a system where you have to -apply- to have your own shop / business.





And thus we have a system where LARGE swaths of the population are gate kept from running business rp. - We also have a system that literally right now is telling you that you can't own a business, which means you can't use the BARTER skill because in order to use the BARTER skill you need to have a BUSINESS PERMIT which you can only gain through Applying and you CANT apply because Business owners are LOCKED.

Why all this bureaucracy? Just let people roleplay.

You might as well honestly remove the skill, hell remove cooking whilst we're at it. Cooking relies on being able to get a mixture of products to even utilize the skill and if there's no businesses on you can't even use the business skill to utilize it.

Just make the system simple, let people log off, log on, go to a door, own the door. Run and rp a business owner, log off when their done- rinse repeat with the ability for others to take over the store.



Wanna make it abit more perminant for well established businesses? Well don't lock 75+ players out of running a business at least.

At least give us some shops to run at least.

What's that? Want to ensure people hire other citizens? Well then make it rewarding? Have the DoP actually reward people for good hiring practice.
Don't want people spawning shit randomly for themselves and using the business menu incorrectly? Well shit tough, that's what administration is for.


Please fix.


You guys went on about "CiTiZeN CeNtRiC RoLePlAy" well then let us actually roleplay a citizen running a business.


I know this came off as hostile but this just seemed really -really- stupid to me and it's all for some kind of humour.

Thats all, peace.

 

[Robert]

Right, just going to go through this quickly as really I do believe this is a misunderstanding of how the Willard systems work. First of all, to say we are "Gatekeeping" is completely false. It is basically almost equal to your CWU setup where you have to apply to own an OFFICIAL BUISNESS. Keyword "Official".

If you want a business permit, contact the CCA. It is simple as that, then you can run an unofficial business. (This will be improved when smuggling arrives.)

If you want your workers to be paid, do it yourself, not handled by DOP nor CCA as a whole, that is the business owners job.

The vending machine costs? Those have already been lowered, but can only change that by kicking everyone off the server quickly for a restart. SO until a restart happens, it will be expensive. However, the system behind that is that we expected businesses to run where items would be cheaper, but the business owners are EU dominant, causing a problem in the US timezones.

Cooking does not require bartering, you can find the item or just buy it from an existing store. The basic cooking tools cost 10 credits each.

The Eco also relies on Smuggling skill... which currently does not exist, unfortunately.

Jobs are not being given by DOP because it seems again, there is an EU dominance causing US to be bored out of their minds and dying out because Abe is really the only DOP member in the US timezone. But work shifts and jobs are the main way to get money.

Rations were designed to give you low amounts of money in hope the businesses, citizens and DOP will all operate to ensure money circulates and builds up overtime. That was a flaw which just smacked the CA.

Oh not to mention, the CA has resigned, I am trying to keep on top of many things and well generally got lots of things to deal with. So this ain't gonna be magically fixed in the next day or so. May take a bit as I deal with the CRU, CMU, payments, DOP issues, etc.

These are not really OOC issues, but more or less IC understandings of how the systems actually work.

 

[Sagsworth]

To mention - turns out the prices have changed and the server needs a restart for that to change in real time. Rest is up to the CCA and leads to figure out. It's also not gate-kept, just contact the CCA and get a permit. That's it from what I've been informed by Atle & Rob.

I'm going to be very sad if I spent 100 tokens making something that becomes half the cost after a restart

 

[Robert]

I'm going to be very sad if I spent 100 tokens making something that becomes half the cost after a restart

You can get a refund for that as we can check the logs and see if it was brought after or before any prices changed so you don't just lose x amount of credits because changes.

 

[Conair]

Right, just going to go through this quickly as really I do believe this is a misunderstanding of how the Willard systems work. First of all, to say we are "Gatekeeping" is completely false. It is basically almost equal to your CWU setup where you have to apply to own an OFFICIAL BUISNESS. Keyword "Official".

If you want a business permit, contact the CCA. It is simple as that, then you can run an unofficial business. (This will be improved when smuggling arrives.)

If you want your workers to be paid, do it yourself, not handled by DOP nor CCA as a whole, that is the business owners job.

The vending machine costs? Those have already been lowered, but can only change that by kicking everyone off the server quickly for a restart. SO until a restart happens, it will be expensive. However, the system behind that is that we expected businesses to run where items would be cheaper, but the business owners are EU dominant, causing a problem in the US timezones.

Cooking does not require bartering, you can find the item or just buy it from an existing store. The basic cooking tools cost 10 credits each.

The Eco also relies on Smuggling skill... which currently does not exist, unfortunately.

Jobs are not being given by DOP because it seems again, there is an EU dominance causing US to be bored out of their minds and dying out because Abe is really the only DOP member in the US timezone. But work shifts and jobs are the main way to get money.

Rations were designed to give you low amounts of money in hope the businesses, citizens and DOP will all operate to ensure money circulates and builds up overtime. That was a flaw which just smacked the CA.

Oh not to mention, the CA has resigned, I am trying to keep on top of many things and well generally got lots of things to deal with. So this ain't gonna be magically fixed in the next day or so. May take a bit as I deal with the CRU, CMU, payments, DOP issues, etc.

These are not really OOC issues, but more or less IC understandings of how the systems actually work.

There's a lot to unpack here so I'm going to do paragraph by paragraph

1. That is a really confusing distinction "OFFICAL" versus "UNOFFICIAL" yet you still need to contact the CCA/do a request to do it? What's the difference between these? Surely the terminology is fucked.
   
   
2. What does an unofficial business mean? Not funded by the state? If so, legit dont bother with a permit and let people just run market stalls on the fly - it's not like the burden of living takes up 120% of your credits.
   
   
3. You can't hire workers to pay workers if you have no money coming in - then because they don't have money they cannot go out other (or their own workplace) to buy things. This is legit economic paradox you see in capitalist countries.
   
   
4. Find a time of low pop and have a restart there every day, it becomes routine, allows hot fixes and generally improves daily server performance.
   
   
5. 'just buy it from an existing store. The basic cooking tools cost 10 credits each.' No one has any money to do this; even if they did have money to get the supplies from hardly existent stores - Then most people will be using it to boost stats/sell for profit. Once more no one can afford shit, so they'll lose even more money
   
   
6. Perhaps plan your economy around the fact a corner stone is missing until the corner stone is implemented.
   
   
7. Consider filling the DoP backlogue asap, make work cycles happen more or pay more as well as realise that once more, saying people can get jobs is counter to the fact there's no money.
   
   
8. Rations giving low money with a low cap to insure that long term inflation doesn't shit all over the economy is wise, if the price of survival level goods wasn't 1million and if there was a food-bank operating to counter the murderous cost of living - tied into this once more, low income = low spending = low money circulation = low wages. A tidy paradox.
   
   
9. I thought your system was in such a way that it didn't need the CA to be omnipresent to make the gears move. I suggest you find a replacement so you can focus on more important things.
   
   
10. It is VERY much an OOC issue. It's easy to forget, all wages, all business, all prices are dictated by those which run the server.

TLDR: Economic paradoxes are at play, all of these problems tie into each other and are entirely legitimate issues.

EDIT: Removed air of smugness

 

[john dee]

tbh doing work cycles feels more profitable than a business
after running sunrise (yestreday)
made 18 creds in a few hours
in a work cycle, i made 50 creds in less than half a hour or something
so thats neat

 

[Robert]

That is a really confusing distinction "OFFICAL" versus "UNOFFICIAL" yet you still need to contact the CCA/do a request to do it? What's the difference between these? Surely the terminology is fucked.

At the moment, the application is the only difference. Smuggling when that comes in will allow those unofficial businesses to operate solely off of smuggling and the CCA requirement will be gone.

What does an unofficial business mean? Not funded by the state? If so, legit dont bother with a permit and let people just run market stalls on the fly - it's not like the burden of living takes up 120% of your credits.

We won't be removing the permit. That is like asking for the entire business system to collapse as businesses become redundant. Why? Well if we remove the permit... there is no need for a business anymore. People can just pick up the skill, buy whatever, collect it without needing to go to a store. That is extremely flawed and dumb.

You can't hire workers to pay workers if you have no money coming in - then because they don't have money they cannot go out other (or their own workplace) to buy things. This is legit economic paradox you see in capitalist countries.

Businesses do get starting cash to pay their workers and operate their store. We haven't just given businesses without any money otherwise they would collapse without question. In fact, the eco at the moment is mainly state ran, which is far from capitalism. Maybe switching to a full capitalist system would be better, who knows. Something akin to the free market.

But eco in-game right now is moving a bit better now. The system was never designed for people to get shit day 1 bare in mind. It would take some time for people to buy some things apart from food and drink. That was the original design until yesterday where it was changed on the spot at request.

Find a time of low pop and have a restart there every day, it becomes routine, allows hot fixes and generally improves daily server performance.

Well yes, we already got an update planned.

'just buy it from an existing store. The basic cooking tools cost 10 credits each.' No one has any money to do this; even if they did have money to get the supplies from hardly existent stores - Then most people will be using it to boost stats/sell for profit. Once more no one can afford shit, so they'll lose even more money

A few people do not seem to have this issue. Some people have brought the cooking gear already. The system has a way of working, just not everyone has figured it out. Some people are able to buy food, drinks and tools just fine though. I have just recently bumped up the credit from rations even and lowered the timer to 2 hours from 4.

Perhaps plan your economy around the fact a corner stone is missing until the corner stone is implemented.

Well for unofficial businesses, yes, a cornerstone is missing as Smuggling is missing and without it, unofficial has to use official means.

Consider filling the DoP backlogue asap, make work cycles happen more or pay more as well as realise that once more, saying people can get jobs is counter to the fact there's no money.

Easier said than done. The DOP if in full function, would have a sustainable eco as people would have to work the jobs they give and their workcycles in order to buy stuff. Essentially again, the design was that rations was merely for food and drink. Jobs, workshifts and all that jazz was for those wanting to actually buy things like clothing and such. Forcing you to get a job or do workshifts or only live off basic rationing.

Rations giving low money with a low cap to insure that long term inflation doesn't shit all over the economy is wise, if the price of survival level goods wasn't 1million and if there was a food-bank operating to counter the murderous cost of living - tied into this once more, low income = low spending = low money circulation = low wages. A tidy paradox.

Well yes, we are trying to fix the pricing to make sure what you get from rations at least allows you to survive vs getting a job or doing workshifts which allow you to go further and buy fancy items.

I thought your system was in such a way that it didn't need the CA to be omnipresent to make the gears move. I suggest you find a replacement so you can focus on more important things.

It doesn't require the CA. Just with the CA resignation it caused chaos internally as it is more work for me to focus on at this time. So yes, I do need a replacement to hold the position and let me fix the eco, cru and DOP issues instead. Just my previous CA decided last minute to go "OH, I have no interest in playing IC, bye." which was annoying.

 

[Robert]

Basically working to solve everything, but don't expect a fix until later down the line. Maybe either later today for some extra fixes to recipes, new items to buy and sell, price changes, etc. Or further than that maybe 1 to 2 days where we can also include fixes for vorts, CP wages, a few bugs + other fixes waiting to be pushed.

But yeah. Got things to work on. No ands buts or ifs about it.

 

[Miniati]

"system that literally right now is telling you that you can't own a business, which means you can't use the BARTER skill because in order to use the BARTER skill you need to have a BUSINESS PERMIT which you can only gain through Applying and you CANT apply because Business owners are LOCKED."


How is it locked? Just apply for a business, no one is being gatekept
The problem right now is the pricing of everything and the materials needed to craft items, it costs an arm and a leg to cook one fucking pastry.

 

[AdamCF]

just do what neb does
as an ex-business owner on neb, it worked well

 

[FreeStalker]

> When your the Universal Union and you hand out business permits
> A clothing store sells a jacket
> jackets are contraband
> CPs detain you and strip you of your jacket that you purchased at a Union approved store- a jacket that was on public display
> Suprised pikachu face

Not sure if this is 4D Chess, hardcore dystopian difficulty, or just CPs being Willard CPs

 

[theHandgun]

> When your the Universal Union and you hand out business permits
> A clothing store sells a jacket
> jackets are contraband
> CPs detain you and strip you of your jacket that you purchased at a Union approved store- a jacket that was on public display
> Suprised pikachu face

Not sure if this is 4D Chess, hardcore dystopian difficulty, or just CPs being Willard CPs

Just call admins.

 

[FreeStalker]

Just call admins.

The Cp was an admin. LOL

 

[theHandgun]

You should go to the higher-ups then, why would a jacket be illegal in the first place.

The Cp was an admin. LOL

 

[FreeStalker]

You should go to the higher-ups then, why would a jacket be illegal in the first place.

That's what I want to know. They didn't want to give an answer.

 

[Madcombat]

Jacket costed 80 credits too.



Later lol

 

[FreeStalker]

To my current knowledge there is no list or manifest that tells business owners what is illegal to sell and what isn't...

To my current knowledge, the plan is that illegal objects were supposed to be centralized around a Smuggling skill that is WIP.

Bro. Why can traders unknowingly sell illegal items. Why.

 

[Atle]

Hello! The system we've got in place is by no means designed to be a gatekeeper but is designed to be dealt with ICly via Civil Administration. I'm sorry that you've gained that impression and we'll do our best to have another look at the setup, see where we can improve, clarify and innovate to make it better for business owners to operate. We wont be able to fix this in 1 day, it'll take a bit of time but we're looking at it. Thank you for letting us know!

 

[Madcombat]

Give me , Give me, Trenchie.
Be they leathery or from Willy.
Spend my hard-Earned Credit points
On Trenchie edgy big boy coat
Spine lifts me to the nexus
To take my trenchie that I earned

Trenchie is the only coat
That puts me in the happy mood

Spine tells me to take a nappy
But sleeping doesnt make me happy
I'll scream, I'll shout, I'll make a post!
I'll Bitch, I'll Whine, I'll even Meme!
Trenchie is my Gear's desire Fueled by rebel hungry fire!

Spine sighs and cries
But sigh's doesnt give me trenchie
My Credits were fairly earned
To buy Trenchie that I earned!
But no trenchie equiped?
Did Spine just think I'd wait?
TRENCHIE TRENCHIE GIVE ME NOW YOU FAT UNGRATEFULY INCOMPETANT SOW!!!111

 

[razan]

sounds like we need a stimulus package

 

[Robert]

> When your the Universal Union and you hand out business permits
> A clothing store sells a jacket
> jackets are contraband
> CPs detain you and strip you of your jacket that you purchased at a Union approved store- a jacket that was on public display
> Suprised pikachu face

Not sure if this is 4D Chess, hardcore dystopian difficulty, or just CPs being Willard CPs

Jackets are contraband? Wot


Everything businesses should be selling is legal. Except for the Kitchen Knife which you can carry, but make sure you put it straight into your apartment afterwards, carry it around too long and CPs can grab you.