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Willard Political Rework
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Merlinsclaw
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>crying in the club rn
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Primativist party when
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Pandafish
Guest
never understood the appeal of roleplaying politics in HL2RP. time and time again these divisive party factions are eradicated by the combine after overstepping some boundary, so can we just stop trying to shoehorn 1984 into the alien occupation that clearly has no use for it?
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The_Grass_Man
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But political riots are fun
John Rico
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Well if it's that easy to resolve I don't really see the risk in letting them try it again.
My pet peeve with politics is how everything is way bigger than it has any right being, every party last time around was just City 24's representatives from some global political movement with some fancy lore attached to it. I would find it more engaging if I saw the new parties be developed as local unions from the district the server takes place in, and maybe then grow into something more influential. Same with the LA, last time I attended a session as spectator, they were discussing legislation about vending machines, so they are pretty much a municipal board larping as something they are not already.
Vulpes Callida
Radio Bob Approved
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I think the politics are OK, it's just that the people misinterpret them. Like the people in CWU/CCA who think of tokens/credits as a 'currency' rather than the 'electronic foodstamps' they're meant to be, or the people who start 'enterprises' and 'chain businesses' and 'have sixteen different positions' and 'are important'... Like bro, we live in a *communist military dictatorship*, where personal posessions and individuality are kept at a mininum for a reason. I get it's maintained to not kill City/PlazaRP but Fortune500 and Wall Street stopped being a thing long ago in this universe.
It's kinda the same people who think of the CCA being this sprawling mass of rich and famous people and bureaucrats worthy of portrait in this Americanised White-Housey-1% hybrid conception of power. With massive, different swaying ideologist such as 'transhumanist ascendency' or 'futurism', or 'hyper-republicanism' -- like, I'm not saying they're not original, or well constructed, but they're certainly NOT fitting of the world in any way shape or form. What happened to suppressing instinct and thought? To obeying something greater we cannot comprehend? To 'admitting and submitting', 'the limits of understanding' from humanity as a species? Why would our leagues-ahead alien overlords authorise us to think when thinking is what leads to wars, sedition, and the thirst for power? These aliens just wanna turn our planet into a mining site and refinery, not establish a new world order lead by humans. They already kinda did that themselves when they swept us in seven hours.
Shit, even in the book, the inner party is, unknowingly, a slave to itself, despite the luxuries they bring. And I don't really think all of the CCA should be considered 'inner party' as it currently is, like some untouchables in suits. Only the top echelon. Who is still subjected to this slavery, to the system itself. To noone in particular. To a machine. Even Breen is depicted as nothing more but a cog.
For me the CCA is more a bunch of paper pushers who work like ants to handle the more sensitive information and management under extreme supervision, as if any of that got out it'd be a huge problem. Rather than preposterous caviar eaters and near-comical James Bond villains and/or other stuck-up pedantic people. I feel like it lacks the essence of "we're all miserable in distinct ways" both the book and the game mean to transmit. Their development should cycle around being forced to go through with shit they know is horrible, like fake propaganda, supression of the truth, and outright genocide at times; all to keep the Union as 'only viable option'.
TL;DR I like the ideas of parties and such, but if this is gonna turn into people thinking it's House of Cards like I get the feeling they do (and misinterpreted both of the core media that shape up the gamemode) then it's best we just don't.
The system makes sure there's always someone above and below you, like a cycle you cannot control, where the lines are blurred. There isn't the real possibility of 'change' because the rules of the system dictate so. The reins are out of human hands.
It's not a near-religious pyramid like people are forcing it to be.
EDIT:
Still, reading up in these 'disciplines' showcases a clear creative effort (much bigger than what I'd be otherwise capable to conjure). I'm not saying it's bad, it's just in my conception of the universe it doesn't fit, which are 2 different things.
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The_Grass_Man
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I'm just here for the street battles
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Merlinsclaw
Guest
counterpoint:
Willard is far removed from HL2. Radiobob soda, toy stores, and carnival rides in the plaza.
Politics (if done correctly) can add a level of antagonism back. Violence, Conflict, and Roleplay beyond that of 'I'm going to work at this bar counter for 6 hours and then hop off.' I disagree with the notion that politics should be anything other than adding antagonism and conflict to server. When it's loyalists sitting around, talking in the Nexus, and doing absolute jackshit other than voting on nothing-burger bills about credits or funding, it's absolute shit. Yet when it's on the streets, where anyone can get involved, and it's general fun conflict it's great.
Furthermore, politics should be varying in the Union, different outtakes on how things should be ran. Take the 'BRI' for example despite the 'Human Science' posters we see in HL:A. One party may support science, one may not. One may support transhumanism, one may not. One may go balls to the walls and support some fucking union luddite ideology. One may support the abolition of 'human culture' to be refitted to fit the combine. It's whatever you want and it's whatever makes it fun.
Don't diss antagonistic politics because it's not HL2. Go after radiobob soda, toy stores, carnival rides, and all the other wacky shit first.
Willard is far removed from HL2. Radiobob soda, toy stores, and carnival rides in the plaza.
Politics (if done correctly) can add a level of antagonism back. Violence, Conflict, and Roleplay beyond that of 'I'm going to work at this bar counter for 6 hours and then hop off.' I disagree with the notion that politics should be anything other than adding antagonism and conflict to server. When it's loyalists sitting around, talking in the Nexus, and doing absolute jackshit other than voting on nothing-burger bills about credits or funding, it's absolute shit. Yet when it's on the streets, where anyone can get involved, and it's general fun conflict it's great.
Furthermore, politics should be varying in the Union, different outtakes on how things should be ran. Take the 'BRI' for example despite the 'Human Science' posters we see in HL:A. One party may support science, one may not. One may support transhumanism, one may not. One may go balls to the walls and support some fucking union luddite ideology. One may support the abolition of 'human culture' to be refitted to fit the combine. It's whatever you want and it's whatever makes it fun.
Don't diss antagonistic politics because it's not HL2. Go after radiobob soda, toy stores, carnival rides, and all the other wacky shit first.
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The_Grass_Man
Guest
This man is right, make this man the new WN director
Vulpes Callida
Radio Bob Approved
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The fact radiobobo soda, toy stores, carnival rides, and wacky shit happened, does not mean I like the fact they did. It's just an opinion, after all. I was shown a screeny of the wacky ride the other day and I didn't like it one bit. I'm just consistent with my viewpoint. Doesn't mean it's "wrong". I just don't like it. Like this Anchorage event, or the BRI. I just feel like they don't contribute anything substantial or fit. But that is me. I've my reasons.
Again, you are right. Politics can add a lot, that was kind of the first sentence of what I said. My argument was I just doubt you (as in you personally, the entirety of the current CCA, and potentially the server) can handle them effectively.
And, this is just an opinion. From what I've seen, and from what I've heard, as I state in my other two posts in this thread.
EDIT: Every server is "detached from HL2"; they all have custom lore, and so on. "Detachment" is inevitable. The point of the matter to discuss if you also wanna go down into this argument is whether it fits the universe or not. I've seen servers with OTA ODST pods; do you think that fits? I think it doesn't. Same with what I mentioned.
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The_Grass_Man
Guest
This man is right, make this man then new WN director
Rabid
Radio Bob Approved
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My brother in christ the vast majority of the way the Combine is run and the way the CA are set up is taken directly from 1984 lmao, Atle's not been shy about the inspiration for it and has said as much more than once.
Like it or not, political parties brought a lot of roleplay. People remember it fondly even now. It brought far more roleplay to the city than almost anything else at the time.
The only reason it grew into OOC spite was because certain staff members at the time pulled every trick they could to get them removed or the players behind them banned.
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Pandafish
Guest
or, yknow, the combine could just be the antagonists. the whole half-life thing, alien invasion, humans are slaves, thought police, etc.
politics have proven to not introduce meaningful conflict to the average player, it's just a runaway power scheme for a tiny group of people (which gets them all killed hilariously).
i know it's a boring take but it's the half-life universe. the games depict a battle against a cosmic superpower and that should remain the focus.
things like bob soda/carnival rides/toy stands exist to make the server more lighthearted, and in my mind are in service to the relatively humorous atmosphere in hl2 (almost star wars-like) such as when rebels reference missing "the jugglers" on breenTV. so while the setting of the game is quite bleak, it's not always 100% serious and thats what i like about half life.
Vulpes Callida
Radio Bob Approved
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Could you point to the chapter of 1984 where any parties other than "the party" (literally defined in the first 5 pages as -the only political party-) exist?
Or, what other public figures besides Big Brother (which isn't even real, spoilers, as defined by the 1st and last chapter of the book, that Breen was clearly meant to imitate) exist like we have our Ministers and such? Yes, there are ministries, but when is anyone of actual relevance mentioned in the book? Could you tell me?
(The whole point of them being publicly called 'ministries' is to give the illusion they're a legal, and human institution. It's pure façade, if that much isn't apparent by the very names they hold)
In fact could you name a single character in 1984 who holds any degree of real power, besides O'Brien, who is also a cog in a machine much larger than him? (He is doing as told; that is not power)
Even the fucking 'rebel leader' in 1984 is a ficticious character. The whole point of 1984 is to illustrate the system is all an illusion to keep people enslaved and under control. And you're making it into an actual physical thing, with ranks and hierarchies and shit ala Constitution, ignoring the intrinsic simplicity in the horror show that is the book. It's this meme all over again (unrelated to 1984's context but fitting):
The amount of people saying "1984" without actually reading the book or understanding it past 3rd grade reader level is beyond my understanding. There's even letters written by Orwell that state exactly this, and this was the reason the CIA did not allow 1984 to be published for 1+ year in the US (because the book critiques the techniques used by both superpowers).
Call it custom lore and roll with it, but stop adding '1984' after every argument, because the interpretetation of the world I gave is perhaps what is closest to it, and not even then. Only Orwell is fit to unveil the secrets behind it and he's kinda dead from tuberculosis. The 1984 argument is null and void in this instance.
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Rabid
Radio Bob Approved
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It gets them killed because people targetted them OOC lmao, lets not pretend like there was some big IC issue there. The 4 accepted PK appeals support that too, and funnily enough it was only when Merlin was permabanned for being a nuisance that they found an excuse, PK'd his character and dismantled the party system.
You call it a runaway power scheme but what exactly is the current CA system? A group of people sitting in the Nexus doing next to nothing? At least the parties at the time last year where making RP for average citizens and even slum dwellers.
Idk why people act like "OMG IT CAUSED SO MUCH DRAMA!" when the only drama came because of people who tried to find a way to kill the idea in its infancy.
So Political parties make no sense but one line of dialogue supports literal toy stores and fairground rides in the plaza? C'mon dude there's a line. The truth is Atle wants those things so they happen, and you don't have a choice in that.
I'm not trying to be snide, I'm being genuine - Atle based a lot of the server and the setup on 1984's themes and ideas, even if not exactly true to the source material anymore.
He's admitted to that many times since WN launched and thats especially true for the CA system because he's wanted to do it the way its currently set up since he was in my faction on Lemonpunch & Nebulous. I still have his design document somewhere from the time.
I was disagreeing with the idea that adding parties is trying to "add 1984" when the entire server's setup is primarily 1984 inspired.
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Merlinsclaw
Guest
Politics can be handled effectively, for the most part. That's what I say about it.
Aside from that, I'll say this:
'Substantial Contributions to the server' are extremely hard to do and it's something that the server has struggled with for some time. The server has a gameplay loop that hasn't exactly changed since the server launched and overall this HL2RP gameplay loop hasn't changed since the very conception of the gamemode. It essentially goes like this:
The reason the gameplay doesn't change and hasn't changed in 10 years is because it works. It brings in players and its stable. It's safe.
But people eventually get worn out, they want change, they want something other than this exact same gameplay loop in and out. Good events generally change the gameplay loop and how it operates.
So here's the issue.
Here's the problem:
1. You can try to host a City RP event but it ultimately has to be small in nature and can't completely disrupt the 'safety' of how City RP works. Example: bombings, fires, antlion/zombie events, infestations, whatever. Nothing new.
2. You can try to host a 'larger' City RP event but it ultimately CANNOT mess with the City and how it operates still. The 'gameplay change' is minimal and things revert back to normal after some time.
Example: The Food Crisis, Housing Crisis, etc.
3. You can actually host an event that takes place outside of C24 (due to the fact that C24 cannot be changed in any major way) that wildly changes gameplay (good!) but has a minimal impact on C24 itself.
Example: I17 Event, Alaska, etc.
Willard won't change off of any map that isn't C24 and so C24 has to exist in its current state. The 'best case scenario' would be able to have a major shift in gameplay on the main server that lasted in C24 but that ultimately can't happen.
So basically, riddle me this, how do you make a substantial contribution to the server? How do we change from the current gameplay loop?
Vulpes Callida
Radio Bob Approved
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ok on second read my reply sounded rude as I misunderstood your original intent, my bad. love you.
While I now know it wasn't your intent, it gets annoying is all, when a book or an essay or any sort of media becomes the argument-saving wildcard and it's apparent people have not read it or understood it. It isn't the first time I debate the CCA in the forums and it isn't the first time I get the '1984' card pulled over some stuff that clearly is even opposing of what 1984 is meant to represent. The fact it's not '1984' doesn't mean it's bad, again; but let's stop calling it things that aren't. And shit, if it was just a misunderstanding of what 1984 is, then, just change it to make it more akin.
Right on most accounts. I know your pain, I've DMd in this setting and many others. Player interest is, at the end of the day the currency the server should work with. But, this is where our viewpoints essentially differ. And it's not a bad thing.
"Wildly changing things" is just putting duct tape on the broken sewage pipe. It's like artificially keeping something alive with something external and detached. Person braindead. There isn't any real life behind it. Just 'appearances'. And it's ironic. Since the server is advertised as HL2 RPG, meaning it has to hold a degree of semblance with what the game transmits and represents. And the 'wild changes' often stray from that. Goes to show how negative a mentality that is.
You cannot control the players. If they get bored, they get bored. If pop dies, pop dies. Just let it breathe for a while, end if need be. This is inevitable. Close, open. But, I have to say, this happens faster than expected not only because of the nature of the gamemode, but also the lack of proper attention by the CT and the administration team; I've said this before.
The main problems that you should 'tackle' to make a substantial contribution, in my opinion, if you want the gameplay loop to be somewhat restored, are:
1) Tackle down on passive, exploity or evasive OOC attitudes through rulesets or faction changes. I'm not saying punish people for standing still doing nothing, but it's true that RN the 'gameplay loop' makes it extremely hard for the three main factions (Civ, CP, Rebel) to interact as they're in a gigantic bubble of safety each if they only stick to the 'most OOCly compensating strategies', which are:
- For the CP, man the workdesk and afk rankup, and minimize injury when it does happen (we asked for a more mean dispatch that actually forces you to do stuff, but people whined. then proceed to do nothing.)
- For the civs, have no endgame beyond standing still waiting for the ration timers and or grind (store management is super unattended, CWU is not handled too well, loyalist tiers are so bad they shouldn't even be a thing, atm.)
- For the resis, scripthoarding and staying in an otherwise OOCly unreachable environment (the base rules are, honestly, pathetic. there is no chance in hell anyone is getting caught, ever, and it shows.)
Like seriously. There -are- ways to fix this. But people are lazy and or too afraid to correct what's already in place. Why don't the CT play around this either? More on that on 4). And why do admins allow this?
2) The map is simultaneously one of the best and worst I've seen for HL2RP. Best in terms of detail and care, worst in terms of player hotzones and gameplay-oriented areas. Half of it is just hallways pulling people apart to very different ends of everything, despite the attempts of verticalisation. If something doesn't work. Update or change it. If you say "no changes"; deal with the consequences.
3) R e m o v e i n a c t i v e p e o p l e f r o m c h a r g e s o f r e s p o n s i b i l i t y. (but of course, can't do that! for some reason!)
4) The 'events' are so disconnected from one another and at times so repetitive and hollow (i've gone 3 days in a row with the same 'event' playing the exact same way, with it having no 'backstory' or reason to happen whatsoever) that it makes you wonder if there's any real kind of management behind it. I've only really seen ZeroPants and Sif do stuff actively (most of it very good, some of it eh, but they are clearly doing a lot). I've also heard the expedition backlog is extremely clogged, factions and groups who've waited months for their events (allegedly), and in my opinion *some* events feel so forced and with so little care about it... I've seen events where no matter how many /mes someone said, the GM refused to give /its, or any sort of orientation and response to player action (which is what a GM should do).
5) There is still no storyline. You said one was coming, for only one half or 1/3 of the players (which is is already bad enough), and it's still not here. The ones that were started for the rest, even if minor continuous timekillers, were shut off. There is lore but no drive. ATM this server is more akin to a wiki page than a roleplaying game. Lore is good. But without real applicaiton and opportunity to change it, it's just tumblr fanfiction. Allow the people to make the story, don't make it for them.
6) There is so. Much. Padding. That takes you away from actually roleplaying. Roleplay, in fact, is discouraged! Because roleplaying takes effort and people don't want that. They wanna progress individually only. You rely on grinding, near numerical mechanics (social credit, STC, crafting, creds and chips) as core for every main faction then complain people don't RP enough to keep the cycle alive. I've gone to workshifts where I was given 3 points for writing a bible and a half of cool roleplay /mes, and I've seen people get 5 points because they kept their /mes short and were able to mingework twice as much tasks as me. Encourage roleplay. Not rewards.
There's many more. But all of this takes *a lot of effort to fix* though, and in the end it might not even be enough. It's definitely possible however, and the problems ARE known, it's just people are reluctant to face them. These kind of lame practices have been encouraged for long enough that the playerbase that's brewed kinda only cares for it over the actual roleplay most of the time. Right now the problem is the players have the wrong mindset, correct, but who allowed that mindset to flourish?
How many threads exist exactly about this and the issues above...
idk. I like you, Merlin, ok? I'm just angry that instead of tackling core issues the answer is always some facelift. Some WILD WILD DIFFERENT THING! that isn't that different if you actually stop and read it. it's just unfaithful instead. A few name changes here, a few more ranks there. Like when u got mad as a kid, and ur parents bought u candies so u would stfu, instead of educating you on why you shouldn't get mad, and the situation perpetrating.
The issues are gonna remain until they're tackled. You can do as many gymnastics as you want, but those are the problems.
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Rabid
Radio Bob Approved
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No hard feelings, you're incredibly interesting to debate with and I enjoy it a lot
WN is probably the only server I've been on where you can suggest some massive developmental effort that'll take weeks or months and it'll get accepted in a matter of hours and tossed into the pipeline but if you suggest a gameplay change to spice up the roleplay and get people involved it'll be hummed and harred over for 10 pages then ignored or "thought about".
Right now a lot of WN's playerbase is fairly new to serious roleplay and the monotony hasn't settled in entirely, but it certainly isn't in the same place it was this time last year and the response seems to be to just add more script-based padding in the hopes it makes more roleplay even when it just further alienates people.
I respect that fixing these core issues is a MASSIVE issue, especially with rebels (I had to try and do it myself) but in most cases people would be allowed to try different things or systems would be loosened to draw people back while the problems are worked on.
Here it feels like the response is that the systems remain the same and the mountain gets taller each time you try to climb it on top of that.
Why was the SC needed to be a CP raised from 125 to 150, especially in a system where Cops will default to removing SC as punishment and can do so for things such as not liking you? Because while fitting, its discouraging, and it doesn't even do what it was set out to do which was build interesting characters.
Or why were rebels given more map space when their stacked systems end up being a drain on the city population which has left both in a bad spot?